Author Topic: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary  (Read 5301 times)

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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 01:12:05 PM. »
Good find, I hope that it's only a problem with the umbrella seals.
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Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 04:54:15 PM. »
We are tearing into her in the morning, shop is going to be a bit cooler tomorrow.

But I found this post from TXCHOP in April 2011.  I've sent him a PM but does anyone
else have info on a problem using the SE Billet rocker arm supports with the new
breathers.  We had no problems during installation but we will see tomorrow if there
is something we missed.


Incase anyone was wondering, they dont fit in the billet s/e rocker supports.

Seems to work just fine though, havent had any problems with them, just be sure to use the new bolts.


This is a link to the whole post.

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php?topic=37341.0
« Last Edit: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 04:58:03 PM. by Thumper Buttercup »
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline TXCHOP

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 05:15:57 PM. »
Pull the air filter off and run the motor with no external breathers at all. The HP inc breathers caused such a restriction on my motor that every gasket leaked on my bike. As soon as i pulley the hpi external breathers my problems stopped. I had engine oil in my primary as well.

About the screamin eagle breathers..I had a problem with the new style stamper breathers fiting with the s/e rocker supports. Had to modify so they would even bolt down.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 05:19:21 PM. by TXCHOP »

Offline TXCHOP

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 05:16:51 PM. »



Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 05:44:08 PM. »
Hey TXCHOP,

   I talked to HPI today and they are sending me new larger Breathers, I think they know
they have a problem.  I'll post up photos when I get the new ones.  Did your modified
HPI Breathers fix the problem??

We'll take a closer look at the stamped HD breathers in the morning, I don't remember there
being a clearance problem but maybe I missed it.

Thanks for the feedback.


Mark
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline lonewolf

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #30 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 05:54:53 PM. »
About the screamin eagle breathers..I had a problem with the new style stamper breathers fiting with the s/e rocker supports. Had to modify so they would even bolt down.
Me too, but the newer versions now clear.

Online 1FSTRK

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #31 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 05:57:06 PM. »
All this is fine but if you can blow in the breathers and can not suck out through them then they are the trouble . Until you fix it so the motor can vent out and not suck in you have got a problem. Now you have to wonder about your ring seal after brake in and running with all that crank case pressure.

Offline TXCHOP

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 06:31:52 PM. »
About the screamin eagle breathers..I had a problem with the new style stamper breathers fiting with the s/e rocker supports. Had to modify so they would even bolt down.
Me too, but the newer versions now clear.

 :up: Seen the same here too!                        How ya been? Busy i bet!

Offline TXCHOP

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 06:38:26 PM. »
Hey TXCHOP,

   I talked to HPI today and they are sending me new larger Breathers, I think they know
they have a problem.  I'll post up photos when I get the new ones.  Did your modified
HPI Breathers fix the problem??

We'll take a closer look at the stamped HD breathers in the morning, I don't remember there
being a clearance problem but maybe I missed it.

Thanks for the feedback.


Mark


You are probably fine with the stamped breathers. If they bolt up, they were fine.
I think you whole problem was the HPi breathers. Could you do me a favor and take pics of the newer style they send you?
They never offered them to me. I spoke to them about my issues and they said i was the only one.
Heres a test. Assemble the breather on the bench and try to blow through it? Does your head get red and you feel a lot of resistance?
Now try it with a screamin eagle breather or similarand see what the resistance is. Just imagine A LIVE motor at 6500 RPms trying to breathe though that setup. Sure no problem at idle...

Here is my before and after mods on the bolt. I was dissapointed with HPi to say the least.


Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 07:28:24 PM. »
We'll we pulled the front breather, there was a bit of crap in the foam and the umbrella's, I had
to pry the top and bottom breather plates out they were tight.  When we pulled them out I could
blow and suck air through the breather hoses.  I don't see the problem except all the crap in there.

We'll install the new ones tomorrow and go from there.

TXCHOP I called up and the girl said they were busy and could she take my info for a call back.
I told her sure and then told her to tell them the bike just blew 1 1/2 qts of oil in the the primary.

He called back in about 4 min, I told him the build and that we had no problems before and then
he asked for our address and that he had different breathers to send us just to ship ours back
when we get them.

I'll keep you posted on this.
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 08:41:35 PM. »
Umbrellas in ass backwards??

Max
Aka Mousinator, Another Wasted Minute With Max,
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Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #36 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 09:16:00 PM. »
Umbrellas in ass backwards??

Max

I'm not going to admit to anything :potstir:

But when you guys take parts from the bags they come it look at them don't just
put them in the way they come out of the bags.

I pulled the two new ones and one of them was flipped over also.  Looks like
I just pulled the units out and dropped them in as a whole without looking at
them and bolted them up.

I can't believe it ran this good without any trouble until now.

I'll change the rear tomorrow and see what I find.
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline FSG

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #37 on: Wednesday, July 25, 2012. 10:55:47 PM. »
Quote
But when you guys take parts from the bags they come it look at them don't just put them in the way they come out of the bags.
 
 :up: Your on the money there.   :teeth:  Do you remember the new tennsioner that was installed a few years ago, the one that had the piston & spring in the wrong way.  Lots of arse backwards installs of critical components, bearings, tennsioners, seals, pushrods, ....... 

Offline Eleft36

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #38 on: Thursday, July 26, 2012. 06:46:17 AM. »
uh?  :emoGroan:

could all this have been avoided if one :rtfb:   :doh:   

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Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #39 on: Thursday, July 26, 2012. 09:00:40 AM. »
Hey I'll take my lumps on this one,

Don't work in the shop when there are other issues.


We are going to put her back today and we are going to put the Gatermans back in the
front and see if those issues are fixed with this also.

It's looking like something was hanging up the oil pressure releaf valve with all the crap
we've been getting out of the engine.  With that last flush we did the oil finally looks good
and clean so far.

We will this fall put in zippers shoes on the cam plates and replace the o-rings on the oil
pump and inspect it and we will pull the heads and replace the valve guide seals, hopefully
everything else will be ok.  We are doing just enough to keep riding while the riding is good here.

If all goes good a test ride this afternoon with our regular loop ride tomorrow collecting more TTS
data.

You guys have a good one, thanks for the replies guys.
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline hd06myway

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #40 on: Thursday, July 26, 2012. 09:02:50 AM. »
Cracked cases on my 'ol '89 EVO caused this condition, I've never heard of that issue with any TCs though... but a hairline fracture in your case could cause this.  Just saying.

Offline clawdog60

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #41 on: Thursday, July 26, 2012. 10:33:21 AM. »
Did I miss something about the lack of crankcase scavenging/wet sumping issue, or the incorrect breathing caused the build-up?   I thought the oil pressure looked good. Seems that much pressure could have ruined the crankshaft seal (primary side). Hopefully not!!

Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #42 on: Thursday, July 26, 2012. 01:16:23 PM. »
Did I miss something about the lack of crankcase scavenging/wet sumping issue, or the incorrect breathing caused the build-up?   I thought the oil pressure looked good. Seems that much pressure could have ruined the crankshaft seal (primary side). Hopefully not!!


Umbrellas upside down on install, just changed the crank seal and all the primary seals and
was test riding the bike when this showed up.  The new umbrellas fit good with the SE
rocker arms much better than the old.

Three test runs on the bench and all looks good.  We tried the Gatermans but we do have a
bad lifter there and put back the comp cams in the front and all is quiet.  We'll get a good
run tomorrow and see how this goes, but so far so good.

And it would have been MAX that called me out on this , I was trying to sneak around that
issue :hyst:.
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #43 on: Friday, July 27, 2012. 06:20:35 PM. »
We'll we got the upper end fixed yesterday and went out this morning for a ride.

We decided to do two small runs 14 miles to check our work (was raining yesterday so
no check ride).  Got her out and we lost oil again.  Walked over to the dealer for a new
engine crank seal, this one looks totally different from the cometic we put in, this one
is a double lip seal.

So we tore her down, (we are getting too good at this) and pulled the rotor to find the
pressure had totally blown out the engine seal against the rotor, no other leaks or anything.

Kim busted her butt chasing the threads and cleaning everything for assembly while I mowed the
yard.  We then put her back together and got out for a 40+ mile check ride.

This is one different bike now, no loss of oil so we are good to go finally.

It will be interesting to see what this does to our tune and MPG, the power is really there
when you roll on the throttle.  Also our tea kettle noise at shut down is back so all is
well.

Thanks again for the feed back guys, I hope this helps someone else.   
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline LetsRide

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #44 on: Monday, October 08, 2012. 09:51:19 AM. »
I am pretty sure that I am experiencing this problem. I read most of the posts on this and am not seeing exactly what I should be looking for to fix the problem. Let me explain what I think I am seeing. I did a service about a month ago changed all three oils I put Mobil 1 20w50 in the crankcase and Belray in the the trans. and Primary.  Rode it from Atl to Jax and noticed oil on top of the Tranny cover.  Took it to HD in Jax and they said too much oil in the Tranny.  Then rode to San Diego on I10 and back to Atl the long way.  Noticed I was using oil about 4 Quarts in 7800 Miles.  Then started leaking oil from between the Tranny and Primary Checked it in Colorado and it seemed too full.  Now that I am home I'm doing a service and I just drained 3+ Quarts of oil out of the Primary and it is not red like the Belray I put in. This bike has 75m miles on it and has only ever used about 1 qt. between oil changes.  I did run it pretty hard and long but I can't explain the oil in the Primary.
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Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #45 on: Monday, October 08, 2012. 04:15:54 PM. »
You need to pull the comp and clutch pack and then the rotor, change
the engine seal there, you don't need to pull the stator to get it out.

Hope this helps.
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS

Offline rbabos

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #46 on: Monday, October 08, 2012. 05:01:15 PM. »
OK,

   Checking container under the crank plug there was a couple oz's from
that area after sitting for a hour and a half.

   Talking to a friend he said to check the breathers we put on.  Both HPI
breathers hold vacuum when applied and they both allow air to go into
the engine when blown on.  We are running the new updated Harley metal
breathers, new ones put in during rebuild.

    We did get a couple burps from the transmission vent hose while riding, so we are
looking at crankcase pressure problem forcing the oil out into the primary??

Time to talk to HPI???
Well, there's your problem. Breathers should let air out of the engine and not allow air back in.
Ron
I came over to the Dark Side. They have chocolate kisses.

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #47 on: Monday, October 08, 2012. 05:13:04 PM. »

Well, there's your problem. Breathers should let air out of the engine and not allow air back in.
Ron

Message 42

Max
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Offline rbabos

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #48 on: Monday, October 08, 2012. 05:20:52 PM. »

Well, there's your problem. Breathers should let air out of the engine and not allow air back in.
Ron

Message 42

Max
:embarrassed: Ok, so I speed read every other post and missed it.
Ron
I came over to the Dark Side. They have chocolate kisses.

Online Thumper Buttercup

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Re: Why do I have Engine oil in my Primary
« Reply #49 on: Monday, October 08, 2012. 05:22:10 PM. »
OK Guys,

   I'm replying to post #44.
04 Ultra, 95 Cu, 48N, Larry's Heads TTS