Author Topic: Deglazing cylinders ..  (Read 3916 times)

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Offline MadMaxUK

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Deglazing cylinders ..
« on: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. 04:12:32 PM. »
How critical is the deglazing process when changing out pistons & rings? I have an 01 Heritage about to be Hippo'd with 10.25:1 popups in there & I'm changing them out for new SE flat tops. It's got about 18000 miles on these pistons & rings. Can it be done competently with the Lisle brand three legged tools that are on sale in hardware stores? I've seen one with 220 grit stones, for 2 - 7 inch cylinders .. Feasible to do by hand or send the jugs to a shop to be deglazed? TIA.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. 04:53:41 PM. by MadMaxUK »

Offline txtech

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. 04:33:21 PM. »
 if you sell me those 10.25s,i"d let the local machine shop hone my cyls.

Offline Tre_11 FLHX

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. 04:57:22 PM. »
I have used a dingleberry (ball hone) in the past. Slings oil everywhere, but deglazes nice and leaves a great crosshatch pattern.
11 103 FLHX-TW555 cams,10.5:1, FM 2-1-2 ex, FM heads, VPC, JP mufflers, PV tuner

Offline springer-

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. 06:01:18 PM. »
If you use a rigid hone it will show all the highs and lows in the cylinder.  If using the rigid hone takes all the highs out and the cylinders are still in spec for the pistons, it can be on the limits of acceptable.  In our experience, this can lead to piston knock.  As mileage increases this becomes more evident.  With only 18,000 miles on the build your results may vary.

If a ball hone is used to break the glaze it will follow the highs and lows.  The new rings will not follow them like the old rings that caused them to begin with.  Again, Your results may vary.

In this case new flat tops are already needed and to bore to the next oversize is minimal added expense.  This will yield a much more reliable piston fit and promote longevity in the build.

Offline GoFast.....

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. 06:50:51 PM. »
How critical is the deglazing process when changing out pistons & rings? I have an 01 Heritage about to be Hippo'd with 10.25:1 popups in there & I'm changing them out for new SE flat tops. It's got about 18000 miles on these pistons & rings. Can it be done competently with the Lisle brand three legged tools that are on sale in hardware stores? I've seen one with 220 grit stones, for 2 - 7 inch cylinders .. Feasible to do by hand or send the jugs to a shop to be deglazed? TIA.
Mike 52 where are you. Tell um
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Offline mtnmotorrider

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, February 12, 2009. 08:57:09 AM. »
For God's sake, don't be so cheap!  Have then professionally bored and honed to fit your pistons for $120!  If not, you'll be doing that PLUS buying new pistons not too far down the road.   :gob:
I like most dogs better than most people.

Offline GoFast.....

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, February 12, 2009. 09:50:15 AM. »
Changing rings is one thing but pistonS. Better do what the guy above says.
Nothing like the Sound of a Harley and the Smell of Rubber

Offline KingofCubes

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, February 12, 2009. 09:55:02 AM. »
I agree with Springer, we cross hatch with a coarse grit stone for oil retention then plateau hone.

Offline Scramjet

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #8 on: Thursday, February 12, 2009. 09:58:04 AM. »
How critical is the deglazing process when changing out pistons & rings? I have an 01 Heritage about to be Hippo'd with 10.25:1 popups in there & I'm changing them out for new SE flat tops. It's got about 18000 miles on these pistons & rings. Can it be done competently with the Lisle brand three legged tools that are on sale in hardware stores? I've seen one with 220 grit stones, for 2 - 7 inch cylinders .. Feasible to do by hand or send the jugs to a shop to be deglazed? TIA.

Unless you have an air gauge and torque plate to verify the roundness and size top to bottom, I would bore O/S for new pistons and rings.

Bore jobs are priced at about $150-$180 around here.

B
07FLHX 107", TR590, D&D, 109HP/112TQ
06FLSTN, 95", SE211, Cycle Shack 91HP/94TQ

Offline mtnmotorrider

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #9 on: Friday, February 13, 2009. 08:10:00 AM. »
Axtell did mine for $120.  They plateau hone so ring break in is very quick.
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Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #10 on: Friday, February 13, 2009. 10:21:28 PM. »
Air Gauge a MC cylinder. Why.. A good bore gauge would work just fine..

"They plateau hone so ring break in is very quick."

Ron or anyone can call me FOS but plateau honing really doesn't help with ring break-in.. Making the cylinder round, rough and straight ( tq plates )  does. Plateau honing knocks the crap out of the cylinder so that the cylinders break in quicker. (not the rings)

Max.
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Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #11 on: Friday, February 13, 2009. 10:23:08 PM. »
or Randy.. (Koc)
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Offline ederdelyi

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #12 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 02:41:57 AM. »
For those who wish to, RE: Plateau honing

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb40250.htm

The real key is having the proper finish for the ring in use. The ring will likely "seal" sooner or later, how well and how long it seals may be an entirely different matter.

Barrels bored/honed with diamond tooling or stones need a different technique than standard tooling and stones. The final surface finish is what matters, not how you got there.

EDIT: And, of course, making it round, true, ... and purty :>) Clean as well.
« Last Edit: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 03:05:15 AM. by ederdelyi »

Offline Billy

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #13 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 04:20:07 AM. »
Good read Ed, I found the hot honing and laser structuring very interesting.

Thanks.
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Offline ederdelyi

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #14 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 04:51:07 AM. »
Here's another pretty good one:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/honing98.htm

Using some or all of the methods described in these and other articles and checking for the proper RA, RVK, etc. I've been achieving excellent leakdown results. Things have changed considerably, just "scratching 'em up" doesn't "cut" it anymore. :>)

Offline Scramjet

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #15 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 05:16:34 AM. »
Air Gauge a MC cylinder. Why.. A good bore gauge would work just fine..

Max.

Max, do an R&R study on a 3"-4" dial bore gauge, telescoping gauge (checked with micrometers) and an air gauge with ring master.  Then you will know why.  Worse yet would be tri-mics.  Particularly with a bore that is 4"-5" long.  Not saying it can't be done but years of QA experience with many different operators and types of equipment tells me that for repeatability and reproducibility in the .0001" range can only be accomplished with better equipment such as air gauges and CMM's.

Depends on how accurate you want to get.  If a guy says the pistons are fit to .0009", I would like that to be fact.  Bet it is not fact most of the time.  With a dial bore and a gauge block stickup for a set master you would probably be good to about +/- .0003"-.0004".  It would be even worse if you don't have a calibrated set master of some kind.  This is just my pet peeve about accuracy and repeatability.  Just because a dial gauge, micrometer or drop indicator reads some number doesn't mean it is so.

I had this ongoing debate with the lead man in the grinding department for years and proved it out over and over.  Even on a precision ground OD, micrometers would not repeat that accurately.  We were doing bearing fits to .0005" without the mating part.  Three different inspectors using the same micrometers on the same 3"-4" diameter will check in a range of .0005".

B
07FLHX 107", TR590, D&D, 109HP/112TQ
06FLSTN, 95", SE211, Cycle Shack 91HP/94TQ

Offline Hillsidecyclecom

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #16 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 05:20:33 AM. »
No "berry brushes" here.
Sunnen, or Lisle hone.
Using care, set your dial bore guage to the skirt clearence dimension, then hone as needed.
If you blow past the proper clearence, to establish round/straight, then you'll have to bore.
"If I parrot or google information, folks will suspect I really know."

Offline Hillsidecyclecom

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #17 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 05:30:31 AM. »
No "berry brushes" here.
Sunnen, or Lisle hone.
Using care, set your dial bore guage to the skirt clearence dimension, then hone as needed.
If you blow past the proper clearence, to establish round/straight, then you'll have to bore.
Most manufacturers set hi/low limits for the bore size to fall into. Dial bore guage is just fine for that.
Don't need a hammer to kill a fly.
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Offline PanHeadRed

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #18 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 05:40:03 AM. »
>Plateau honing knocks the crap out of the cylinder so that the cylinders break in quicker.<

It actually does very little to the cylinder, about the equivalent of 100 miles of service. IMO if your going to change the oil within the 1st 500 miles, plateau honing is unnecessary.

Offline ederdelyi

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #19 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 05:45:36 AM. »
>>plateau honing is unnecessary.<<

Just curious, care to expand on that as to why?

I don't want to start another "crank" thread, I'll take my answer "off the air" if you prefer :>)

EDIT: on/off, a binary value ... can't even get that right, coffee must not be strong enough!
« Last Edit: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 06:13:31 AM. by ederdelyi »

Offline Sonny S.

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #20 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 05:47:38 AM. »
>Plateau honing knocks the crap out of the cylinder so that the cylinders break in quicker.<

It actually does very little to the cylinder, about the equivalent of 100 miles of service. IMO if your going to change the oil within the 1st 500 miles, plateau honing is unnecessary.

The cylinders aren't really the issue, the rings are. The sharp edges left by the stones are very hard on the rings. If you can knock those edges first then the rings will last longer. No sense in using the rings as a machining tool.

Offline choseneasy

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #21 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 06:09:56 AM. »
 I may as well jump in, anyone use the sunnen cork hones to plateau finish or the PHT stones?

Offline PanHeadRed

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #22 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 06:23:13 AM. »
Sonny, I can't argue that one with you. I will just repeat what was taught to me by Hastings:

There is a certain amount of wear required for cylinder/ring break-in. While the amount is almost immeasurable the plateau hone does what the rings would on initial start up, knock off the peaks. Their opinion was, if you going to change oil prior to regular service intervals because of break-in, spend your money on oil. I admit to doing it, but I don't loose sleep over not.

Bottom line, it is a superior finish.

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #23 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 07:27:33 AM. »
>Plateau honing knocks the crap out of the cylinder so that the cylinders break in quicker.<

It actually does very little to the cylinder, about the equivalent of 100 miles of service. IMO if your going to change the oil within the 1st 500 miles, plateau honing is unnecessary.

PHR,

I think you and I are saying the same thing.. Knocks the peaks off less trash in the motor..

Quote
The sharp edges left by the stones are very hard on the rings.

Maybe back in the olden days when the rings were straight ductile iron.. The Hastings molly filled are pretty tough. So were the old chrome ones used on "metric bike"s..


Max.

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Online wfolarry

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Re: Deglazing cylinders ..
« Reply #24 on: Saturday, February 14, 2009. 07:34:36 AM. »
Max,
Did you ever hear about GM telling people to dump some Bon Ami in the carb with the motor running to break in the rings? [way back when]
P.S. I seen your picture on the cover of People magazine.  :wink: