Question about Title Fraud?

[blk-betty]

I've been searching for a used XR1200 and there aren't that many because they weren't a big seller for HD.

I found one that appears to be in excellent shape with very low mileage and negotiated a price via emal as the seller is a few hours away in another state.

I called him today thinking he was a private individual but found out he is used bike dealer.  The bike itself is an '09 but he says it was sold and first registered in 2/2012...which again could be possible as these weren't big sellers for HD....and therefore still has 1.5 years left on the original factory warranty.   

There are a couple red flags in my mind but maybe just my paranoia.  He claims to have the title from the original owner when it was purchased new but I don't think he ever titled it in his name or his business name.

He is going to send me a photo of the title and the triple tree with the VIN stamped on it.

If I purchase the bike I will have him sign a Bill of Sale from my state DMV but I'm not certain how that will work if the name listed on the Bill of Sale as "seller" is diferent from the name listed on the official Title as "owner".

Seems like maybe he simply didn't register it in his name to save on any registration fees/taxes and he is "flipping it".

I've bought several used bikes from individuals but never from a "dealer" and I honestly don't care how he acquired the bike as long as it is legit with no repair history, damage from prior accident, salvage title, flood damage, or whatever could pose a problem with registration or functionality.

We may not be understanding each other 100% and I'll know more tomorrow when he sends pics of the Title but is this type of thing common for used bike dealers and will it cause an issue when registering it in another state? 

[rmc115]

Dealers dont register vehicles,on our titles they have a spot for "reassignment" for registered dealer use. His business will appear on that part ,at least in Indiana.

[2006blueking]

Calif. has a law that says a used vehicle has to have at least 7,500 miles on it or it can not be reg. as used and will be reg .as new , as in new bike price you might want to check into that I know you don't live there but there are some crazy laws on the books

[blk-betty]

Dealers dont register vehicles,on our titles they have a spot for "reassignment" for registered dealer use. His business will appear on that part ,at least in Indiana.

Ok well that is encouraging.

He told me during our phone conversation that he had all the paperwork "ready to go" and all he had to do was "sign it over" to me.  I'm assuming this is the "reassignment" and after reading your reply I pulled out my recently received title for the '12 Road Glide that I paid off last month and our titles here in SC also have a section on the back for "Assignment By Dealer/Wholesaler/Auction".

So that part looks legit.

I'm going to have my local dealer check the VIN tomorrow and see when it was initially sold in put into service and how much if any of the original warranty is still in effect and I'll run a CarFax as well.   I know the Carfax is not always 100% but it should give me a little more reassurance.

[blk-betty]

Calif. has a law that says a used vehicle has to have at least 7,500 miles on it or it can not be reg. as used and will be reg .as new , as in new bike price you might want to check into that I know you don't live there but there are some crazy laws on the books

That's a strange law.  I believe here in SC whenever a new bike/car/boat leaves the selling dealers lot it is forever "used" as far as the state is concerned.

BTW, the XR has just over 800 miles on the odometer.

[WhipLash96]

this sounds like a straight up consignment sell to me. He uses his place to advertise the bike for the owner and gets a cut of the money that he retrieves for it.. Just make sure the bike isn't stolen which you should be able to do through the DMV. Other than that, doesn't sound suspicious really..

[blk-betty]

this sounds like a straight up consignment sell to me. He uses his place to advertise the bike for the owner and gets a cut of the money that he retrieves for it.. Just make sure the bike isn't stolen which you should be able to do through the DMV. Other than that, doesn't sound suspicious really..

Good point didn't even think about consignment.

[hbkeith]

Hey blk-Betty , a buddy of mine has one he wants to sell, he has not listed it anywhere yet, its mint with hardly any miles, PM me if you want i can give ya his info, its in S.W. lower Michigan

[HarleyHiwayMan]

Something I have found - call your insurance agent and give him/her the VIN number. They can tell a lot about the bike too (who owns it, when it was bought and more). Oh, let them know you are likely buying it too.

[Coyote]

Calif. has a law that says a used vehicle has to have at least 7,500 miles on it or it can not be reg. as used and will be reg .as new , as in new bike price you might want to check into that I know you don't live there but there are some crazy laws on the books

That's not completely correct. You can register a vehicle with less than 7500 miles if it is a CA emissions approved bike. (There is usually a sticker showing this) They just want to prevent new vehicle sales of non CA approved vehicles. AFAIK, all of the metric bikes are 50 state bikes. We moved my wife's Ducati into CA with less than 7500 miles. HD used to make two versions but even they may be 50 state bikes now.

[tomcat64]

if you want to send me the VIN i can check HD's records and NMVTIS (like car fax but much better on bikes) for you,, just to be safe..

[blk-betty]

if you want to send me the VIN i can check HD's records and NMVTIS (like car fax but much better on bikes) for you,, just to be safe..

Thanks a bunch tomcat64

I'm waiting for the seller to send me pics of the Title and the VIN stamped on the frame.

When I get the VIN, I'll send you a pm if you can check the records for me that would be great.

[blk-betty]

if you want to send me the VIN i can check HD's records and NMVTIS (like car fax but much better on bikes) for you,, just to be safe..

pm sent

[blk-betty]

Changed the Thread Title to something more appropriate.


So I got the VIN from the seller last night.  Pics of the frame with the sticker affixed and the VIN clearly legible along with pics of the neck with the VIN stamped into the frame.

Seller claims bike is an 09 which CarFax comfirms but seller says he has a title from the original owner when it was delivered in 2/2012 with "0" miles and he claims the bike still has 1.5 years left on the warranty.

I took the VIN to my local HD dealer and the bike was first put in service on 5/29/2010 and the warranty expired 5/29/12.

So what's the penalty for title fraud?

If this is not fruad now does one get a title from 2/2012 with "0" miles on a 2+ year old bike?

I asked the seller to send pics of the title as well but he failed to do so, wonder why?

[Tsani]

One possibility is a collector bought it first then sold it. Jusy sayin, it's possible.

[blk-betty]

One possibility is a collector bought it first then sold it. Jusy sayin, it's possible.

I guess that is possible but the seller assured me on the phone that the bike was new until 2/2012 when it was first bought and he claims 1.5 years left on the warranty.

Dealer computer records claim otherwise.

[Tsani]

Got ya.
This guy probably didn't check it out himself and took the owners word for it or misunderstood the owner or is trying to get away with a lie for an inflated price or quick sale to someone who doesn't check stuff out. What your dealer doesn't say is when it was title originally. Your dealer could probably tell you where the bike was sold and if it was brought in for maintanance or warranty work and that should reflect milage if any.If it had miles, then the Odometer has been tampered with.

I bought a pan in 74 and almost didnt because the vin on the bike didn't match the title by one number, everything else was good. Turns out it was an error, common error. Most guys changing a bikes vin are not going to do just one number, esp when they have to restamp the cases.

Do your home work. Let TC run it, run it thru the DMV. If all good Call the guy on his BS about the warranty if it makes a difference in the purchase price. If it checks out then my concern would be what else is he lying about.

[blk-betty]

Maybe I'm just paranoid but there are to many things that sound fishy.

My dealer gave me the name of the original selling dealership.

The seller is of a non American nationally that is not know for honesty and damn I hate to sound biased but things just don't add up.  He claims that he only buys 1-2 year old bikes with very low mileage and he was using the title with 0 miles from 2/2012 as a selling point that and why it only has 861 miles on the odometer. 

I really don't care if the bike was sold in 2010, and the warranty is not that big of a deal.  I usually make mods that void the warranty anyway.  I'm more concerned that the odometer may not be accurate, he has no paperwork, other than the title, and he has only one key.  Maybe this is standard business of a "dealer" but I get the impression he is more of "wholesaler". 


Just for kicks, I just ran the VIN on 3 online search sites and get "no records available" for the VIN.

For comparison I ran the VIN on my '12 Road Glide which I am the original owner, and my '09 DR650 which I am the second owner. Both bikes on all three sites show "records available".

Wonder why no records on this bike's VIN?

Yea I'm walking away from this one.

[FSG]

Wonder why no records on this bike?

 
PM me the VIN and I'll tell you if it's good.

[blk-betty]

Wonder why no records on this bike?

 
PM me the VIN and I'll tell you if it's good.

PM sent