Author Topic: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A  (Read 9017 times)

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Offline ClassicRider2002

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CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 03:11:03 PM. »
.

1999 FXR2 that this cam position sensor is in, and when I did my first cam change in 2005 I scribed the inside with sharpie marks so as to put the CMP sensor plate exactly as it was, and I did that for cam change #2 almost 2 years ago, well it's on to cam #3, and so here we are again, staring this plate in the eye. 

But I must admit, I am at loss as to what should be done with this plate, it's time I learned about this for this bike, so what do I need to know:

A)  Just put it in exactly as it came out again, match up the marks?
B)  Is this something that when I have the bike checked for tuning (AFR) and such that they should have access to and rotate it clockwise or counterclockwise?
C)  There doesn't seem to be any real identifiers about how much to turn it right or left. 
D)  The Service Manual that I have spends two pages (8-13 - 8-15) talking about this but pretty cryptically actually, something about using a "inductive timing light" obviously I don't have one of those, so is this something when I am all done I just need to take to an indy who has those tools and let him adjust something?
Also of course the Service Manual speaks about Static Timing and Dynamic Timing.  I could use some help understanding "static" and "dynamic" as well.


If I put the cam position sensor plate back exactly as it came out, do I have where it should be at or do I have something that should be modified, and if modified what are we really doing here?

Ok so I need some education on this as it applies to this evo Carbed bike, also I was able to get some what of a description from Donny Peterson of all people and copied down what he has had to say, so here it is:


The camshaft position sensor (#32448-95) is known as the CMP sensor. The CMP also has a vehicle attitude sensor (VAS) component that most riders and many mechanics donít seem to be aware of, but weíll get to that in a moment. The CMP is a Hall Effect sensor thatís powered with 5 volts from the ECM. This sensor interacts with a break (window) in the face of a metal cup that rotates on the end of the camshaft. When this window passes the Hall Effect sensor an electrical pulse is generated back to the ECM. This tells the ECM the position of the camshaft as well as the position of every valve relative to their seats. It also confirms piston location and the degrees of flywheel rotation, since every moving engine component is timed to the others. The CMP sensor is on the right side of the engine, under what used to be the point cover on the cam cover.

The vehicle attitude sensor (VAS) is a component of the CMP sensor and a safety feature that protects the motorcycle. Some techs think that attitude is altitude, as in elevation, which completely misrepresenting the attitude sensorís function. The VAS has a magnetic ball that rides in a silicone fluid contained in a V-shaped channel. The VAS is mounted as part of the CMP sensor located on the end of the camshaft, under the old points cover. If the bike tilts at an 80 or more degree angle, as when it is being dropped, the magnetic ball will ride up the channel creating an open circuit with the CMP sensor. This causes the ECM to turn off the fuel pump, fuel injection, and ignition system. The VAS is also powered by 5 volts from the ECM. Mid-year in 1998, H-D introduced the bank angle sensor (#32495-98), also known as the BAS, for the same safety purpose as the VAS. The BAS reduces the angle for engine shutoff from 80 degrees to 55 degrees. Once this sensor is triggered, it must be reset or the bike will not start. To do that, bring the bike back to an upright position, turn the ignition off, and then wait at least 10 seconds. You then can the turn the ignition back on and restart the bike.



Here are two photos (all of the marks you see are just there to take me back exactly to how it came out):






Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:15:17 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline Ajayrk

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 06:02:14 PM. »
Its upside down and is ADV for advance of the static timing.  And the hash marks are degrees of timing.  How many degrees?  I don't know.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 06:09:13 PM. by Ajayrk »
AJ

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 06:11:38 PM. »
 :bike:
« Last Edit: Tuesday, July 10, 2012. 01:22:23 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 06:24:19 PM. »
 :bike:
« Last Edit: Tuesday, July 10, 2012. 01:22:42 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 06:55:00 PM. »
 :bike:
« Last Edit: Tuesday, July 10, 2012. 01:16:53 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline Ajayrk

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 07:01:54 PM. »
I'll refer you to an HTT thread.

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php?topic=14093.0
A.  The factory setting, could be a little less than 35* BTDC.  Try advancing one hash mark if you don't have a timing light.  I use a dial timing light.
B.  Advancing the timing can gain some HP.
C.  Each hash mark is~4*.
E.  See link.

« Last Edit: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 07:25:21 PM. by Ajayrk »
AJ

Offline Ajayrk

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 07:26:03 PM. »
You could use this tool from the right side with a timing light.

http://www.retrocycle.com/cccatalogpage.php?pagenum=1064
AJ

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday, June 26, 2012. 08:13:45 PM. »
Ajayrk,

You mention that the factory setting is or could be a little less than 35* (and that would be 35 degrees I believe) BTDC.

Not sure that tool will work with my OEM ignition timing will it?

Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:17:36 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 01:42:41 AM. »
I went out to the garage and did the rotation of the cam position sensor plate in a clockwise ("advance") and counterclockwise ("retard") direction to see how much I could "advance" or "retard" the cam position sensor plate while using the cam position sensor screws.


Remembering of course that my starting spot is X the rotation for a clockwise ("advance") direction and the rotation for a counterclockwise ("retard") direction is as follows:

Once again I am not sure what the difference is between the "BIG" hash marks and the "HALF" hash marks?

ADVANCEUsing the Slots to rotate the cam position sensor plate from my starting point of X, I am able to rotate the cam position sensor plate in a maximum clockwise ("advance") direction of 1 "BIG" hash mark or a total of 2 hash marks (inclusive of 1 "BIG" hash mark and 1 "HALF" hash mark = a total of 2 hash marks.

Next, remembering of course that my starting spot is X, the rotation for a clockwise ("advance") direction and the rotation for a counterclockwise ("retard") direction is as follows:

RETARD:    Using the Slots to rotate the cam position sensor plate from my starting point of X I am able to rotate the cam sensor plate in a maximum counterclockwise ("retard") direction 3 "BIG" hash marks or a total of 6 hash marks. (inclusive of 3 "BIG" hash marks and 3 "HALF" hash marks = 6 hash marks.


Regards,

"Classic"






« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:20:55 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline Ajayrk

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 08:51:00 AM. »
You are making this too complicated.

What do you want to do with the timing?
What ignition system are you using.
And to further confuse you the cam turns at half the speed of the fly wheel, sooo what ever changes you make with the timing plate is doubled at the fly wheel.

Stock factory timing is 35* (the asterisk is for degrees) BTDC.  How much further advance do you want to go?
AJ

Offline FLTRI

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 09:44:30 AM. »
You are making this too complicated....
For sure.
IF you do not have the technical experience and the tools to measure results the only thing you can effectively do is:
1) Replace the ignition timing plate EXACTLY where it was.

> after loaded test riding in the hottest weather you expect to encounter...

2) Advance the plate 1 hash mark.

> load-test ride new timing set point...

3) Repeat the same change until you encounter pinging when load tested.

IF there is no improvement from advancing timing, try going the opposite direction (retarding) testing for power increase.

This is the best advice I can offer for SOP tuning...which can only be ballpark at best.

Careful with too much advance OR retard as damage can be done if run long enough too far either way.
Bob
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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 11:29:01 AM. »
You are making this too complicated.

What do you want to do with the timing?
What ignition system are you using.
And to further confuse you the cam turns at half the speed of the fly wheel, sooo what ever changes you make with the timing plate is doubled at the fly wheel.

Stock factory timing is 35* (the asterisk is for degrees) BTDC.  How much further advance do you want to go?


What do I want to do with the timing and what ignition module am I using?

Great question, right now that's a perfect question, actually I have no predetermined desires to do anything with the timing other than saying here is what I have, and what am I looking at and what do I need to be concerned about, for example, do I just put the cam position sensor plate back together in the exact same spot that it was the previous two cam changes, or is that absolutely ridiculous. AND I Should be considering some sort of rotation?

Last August I changed the ignition module from the stock HD# 32449-95A to a FXRP IGNITION MODUEL HD# 32419-91A which also required a Custom Chrome Adapter CC#12568 for proper plug and play.

CLICK HERE: 101 Harley-Davidson Evolution Performance Projects, Pages 208-210, 213

Excerpts from the Author's book:

What you need to know is that strong running Harley Big Twins usually need more aggressive curves than they come with stock.  The only "factory" modules for Big Twins that offer a different advance curve are the shovel head module, the so-called "HDI" (International) module, the "Police" module, and the SE modules. 

HD# 32419-91A Police FXRP Evo 1340 5,800 RPM-Limit E-Curve
Police module, uses a VOES and offers solid performance.  It boasts a slightly better curve (E) and limits revs to 5,800 RPM.

The motor company did their homework on this one and came up with a pretty good compromise.  This module is "less prone to "ignition-related misfires and shuts the motor down just as the stock heads quit flowing and the stock valve springs start bouncing". 

E-Curve Subtle differences in the curve, but enough to prevent pinging, even in the most high compression motors.  A little known bit of trivia:  the 1985 California Highway Patrol (CHIP) police bikes were built with .050 thousandths milled off of the heads, 0.15 off of the cylinders, and no smog stuff whatsoever.  This module kept them in one piece through many, many miles.

The "P"-Curve is the OEM Ignition Module for my 1999 FXR2 and for all CVO FXR's HD#32449--95A
No graph is available for this latest module (formerly HDI).  Harley's position on this is pretty clear from this statement, dated 4-16-97: "That information is considered to be confidential. Although it may have been given out in the past, we have since taken a new position of protecting that information."

VOES MODULES

The Vaccum Operated Electrical Switch (VOES) is the trigger mechanism for all EVO Harley's using the factory V-Fire III solid-state ignition.  The VOES takes a vacuum reading from the intake and converts that message from the engine into an electrical signal that is sent to the ignition module.  That in turn, tells the module to crank up the advance proportionately. 

These two curves built into the module's microprocessor:

1)  The low-vaccum curve (hard running, wide open throttle) kicks in the "RETARD FUNCTION,
2)  and the high-vaccum curve (cruising, steady throttle) allows maximum advance. 

The module merely picks which curve to use based on an ON-or-OFF signal from the VOES.

Four different VOES modules are used on Harleys, with 3 of the 4 having different switch points based on vacuum levels required to open and close them.  For instance, 1984 FLTs were equipped with an A-curve module and a VOES that switched at 7.0 inches of mercury, a setting that was designed to cope with the heavy payloads and lower engine speeds a typical dresser has to deal with.  Later, the FLT began using a D-curve module, as do all Big Twins to 1995 (and a P-Curve from 1996-0n, it is this P-Curve that is the OEM Ignition Module that the 1999 FXR2 came with) and appears to EMPLOY a VOES module HD#26566-96 which seems to fall in line with a 4.0 inches of mercy switch. 

FACTORY EQUIPMENT VOES SPECIFICATIONS:

Color Code........SWITCH POINT................MODELS

NONE...............7.0 inches of mercury...........Early EVO FLT (1984)
RED..................5.5 inches of mercury...........Late EVO FLT
WHITE.............4.0 inches of mercury...........EVO FXR and XL
BLUE................4.0 inches of mercury...........EVO Softail

By swapping the VOES you can choose a module to TRIGGER the switch to tell the ignition module to run the "advance" map sooner or later than it is constructed to do.  For example choosing a VOES with a 4.00 inch or 5.5 inch mercury switch.

Last August I discovered that those 1993-1994 FXRP Model bikes that were running the E-Curve Ignition Modules HD# 32419-91A were also running the HD# 26566-91 VOES SWITCH, which references 4.0 inches of mercury.  For some reason the 1999 FXR2's, 1999 FXR3's, and 2000 FXR4's were provided with what appears to be a 4.0 inch mercy switch VOES module HD# 26566-96, it's the "96" part that is confusing since the FXR's were no longer being built after 1994 except for the 1995 FXRP version, so one might assume that for the 1999 FXR2's, 1999 FXR3's and 2000 FXR4's that perhaps HD pulled the VOES Switch part number from the softails being built at that time, it's hard to say or to guess, but the assumption is they ended up with a VOES Switch that has a 4.0 inch mercury switch.  While there is no clear cut answer to this, according to one HD dealer and a quick reference check through some tech guide information, all FXR's categorically were provided with switches that would be seen as working properly between 3.5 - 4.5 inches of Mercury.

The VOES lives in the V of the cylinders (with it's black ground wire running to one of the left side head bolts), generally close behind the carb and slightly above the intake manifold.  On the 1999 FXR2 it is attached to the engine mounting bracket which then has the VOES Bracket that secures the VOES.  Swapping a VOES out takes about 2 minutes without the tank in place and everything removed, but it is POSSIBLE to adjust the VOES that's on the bike, however the process isn't in the Service Manual. 

I have not done this but as the Author explains:
If you remove the VOES, you can adjust it by removing the plastic/wax plug that covers the adjusting screw.  WIth a good vacuum gauge and an ohmmeter you can "test" incrementally greater or lesser vacuum settings to see if that helps create the responsive behavior you want.  Simply put the vacuum to the VOES until the ohmmeter reads zero, check the amount of vacuum it takes to do that, and record the reading. 

The Author suggests a "non-sanctioned test for pinging/lagging and seems pretty simple, while it may be a bit brutal:

With a normal payload, get the bike to operating temperature, filled with the fuel of choice in the tank, and take off from a stand still in SECOND gear.  Yes, that TENDS to LUG the motor, BUT you'll know after a couple of attempts if the BEAST is easily able to do this or if it gives you fits when you try.  THIS "crude" test and a VOES adjustment may not make a "GIANT" difference, but it CAN HELP fine-tune the ignition.  Just be sure to re-seal the adjusting screw with silicone when you've got it the way you want it. 

Here is another quick read which attempts to explain the VOES as well:

CLICK HERE

This Author's explanation gives rise to some merits of looking at wanting to use a VOES with 5.5 inches of mercury instead of 4 inches of mercury with some engine performance modifications.

I tend to put less emphasis on the merits of whether a 1999 FXR2 which weighs in at 570 lbs and a 1998 RK which weighs in at 710 lbs really needs to be considered so extremely different when it comes to the discussion of cams or other intricacies associated with the engine builds, when you could put 140 lbs more weight on the FXR fairly quickly with a front fairing, side bags and touring pack or by carrying a passenger so I tend to classify them together....I tend to attribute more ideas about what the engine needs and will require to perform the way I am searching for it to perform.

As the author suggests:

The higher the number (a VOES Switch with 4.0 inches, 5.5 inches, 7.0 inches of mercury) the stronger the vacuum is sucking, and the longer the ignition stays retarded.

If you get intermittent pinging on acceleration, and if switching to better gas doesn't help, try recalibrating your VOES to retard the timing at a higher vacuum number before you start going crazy doing other, expensive, stuff.

Now the reason you're digging around in here is that you need to adjust it, right? Let's say you're putting it on a bigger motor or that you've been getting an ignition rattle when you accelerate. That calls for adjusting it to switch to advance at a higher level - make it a couple inches, say, 7" of Hg.


Last August, I discovered that the 1994 FLHTP (Touring Styled Police Bike) as well as all FLHT models were using the HD# 26555-94 VOES.  The same dealer as referenced above confirmed that the HD# 26555-94 VOES were used in the 94 FLHT bikes and that upon referencing the technical information it appears that this VOES is described as switching properly between 5.00inHg and 6.00inHg or 127-152 mm. Thus this would correlate to being a 5.5inHg switch.

Which more fully supports the idea that with an engine that has been modified to provide more volumetric efficiency beyond the levels of a stock engine it may stand to reason that one may not require as much advance as a stock engine thus "retarding" the ignition timing, and thus merits of a VOES Switch with a higher switch capability of say 5.5 inches of mercury before it begins to switch the ignition module to the "advance" map may perhaps assist one in finding a better fit for addressing their timing through the methodology of the VOES Vacuum Switch.  This slight delay might simply be a nice bump to allowing just a bit more retard on heavy acceleration if you are experiencing some slight pinging manifestations during hard acceleration.

"....Stock factory timing is 35* (the asterisk is for degrees) BTDC.  How much further advance do you want to go?..."

NOW as I am progressing through this, logically it appears that I may actually want less "advance" than more, i.e.: moving in the direction of "retarding" the timing since:

Because a typical stock engine is less efficient with it's burn the timing needs to be advanced, thus we find evo engines pretty much set up from the factory with the timing coming on at 35 degrees and because now my engine is now more efficient the timing does not need to come on as quickly thus we need to "retard" the timing from say 35 degrees to whatever, maybe 20 degrees for example.

I am wanting to delay the timing curve going into advance as the VOES reads it so it makes sense to consider running the Ignition Module HD# 32419-91A and I have a different VOES Switch HD# 26555-94
Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:26:31 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 11:47:34 AM. »

after loaded test riding in the hottest weather you expect to encounter...

load-test ride new timing set point...
Repeat the same change until you encounter pinging when load tested.

IF there is no improvement from advancing timing, try going the opposite direction (retarding) testing for power increase.
Careful with too much advance OR retard as damage can be done if run long enough too far either way.
Bob

Bob and AJ,

 :up:  :up:  :up:  (appreciate you guys and your patience)

Well, here I sit, I am only a few miles from the worst wild fire in CO history.....and it hasn't been much hotter than it is right now in the history of the state, basically it seems the entire state is burning up.....so I guess I am good to go on that right now....

It's been in the 100's and over 500 homes have burned up....

I am only making this complicated because I don't understand it, and I am willing to read about it to understand it....hopefully some of what I posted above provides further foundation for my next steps...

As you can tell I have settled on a ignition module in coordination with a VOES switch....that's been addressed, so now as far as "timing" goes I am back here at the Cam Position Sensor Plate, mumbling to myself.....

 :gob:

Once again, just to be clear, one hash mark equals what?  How much advance, 1 degree or is it something else?

And why every other hash marks half the length, does this mean anything or is it just the way it's done on the plate to make visual references easier? 

I have no problems having this done on a dyno.  Which one should come first, setting the cam position sensor cam plate which I am now assuming is the "timing" and then setting your carb or the other way around or does it matter?

Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:29:25 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline Ajayrk

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 12:25:17 PM. »
By calculating the circumference of the cam plate and dividing by 360* I have   determined that each hash mark on the timing plate = 5* at the flywheel.

Leave the timing plate where it is and use the ignition module to set a curve that will advance the timing curve faster until it reaches 35* BTDC.  Some modules will lower the fully advance timing. 

Look at the chart for the Crane ignition (last page) and you can see how much sooner the timing advances as the rpms rise.

It took me a while to wrap my head around this.

The FXR & Softail are light bikes and don't need to pull the timing back as much when the throttle is suddenly opened.  Only the mounting brackets are different.  I use a VOES form a Softail on my shovel, the timing plate was timed with a light to 35* BTDC and the Crane ignition was set by Bob's method of select and ride.  I ended up with a setting of #9.

I'm also lazy and did not read all of your novel.  :hyst:
« Last Edit: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 12:31:33 PM. by Ajayrk »
AJ

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 01:47:08 PM. »
Just doing some reading over on TWIN CAM section, and a poster there is having issues with "pinging" with his carb twin cam. 

Here is a partial quote offered to him:
The engine will use what it needs.. back down the advance one and see if it goes away.. Timing is set last after your afr is dialed in.. If your afr is floating in the low 13 range.. pull some timing.. provided the rest of the set is correct there is no "set timing " scale......

What I am gleaning from this is that I too was curious WHICH ONE should be done first, obviously going with the CAM POSITION SENSOR in it's current place without rotating it would initially make sense just to get it to a tuner.....and then it seems that you would set your AFR and get the bike with the AFR "dialed" in then concentrate on the cam position sensor plate and setting the "advance" or the "retard"?

Would this be a proper way to progress.......

As I stated I am simply trying to wrap my mind around all of this so I have a working knowledge of understanding.

I would generally desire to get my bike set at the 13.1 area for AFR if possible, but that discussion is a bit easier for me to understand, as I said I am trying to figure out this ignition timing stuff.

Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:30:12 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday, June 27, 2012. 02:08:11 PM. »

 :fish:

I am starting to figure this out.

Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:33:24 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #16 on: Thursday, June 28, 2012. 12:27:24 AM. »

Would still really like to know the degrees or what tool I need to actually figure this out precisely?

I think that tool that was referenced above won't work if you are using an OEM ignition module and that OEM Cam Position Sensor will it?

Would there be any communication being conveyed from the "Cam Position SENSOR" to the tachometer that could result in the tachometer erratically jumping around?  In other words if there is a "CAM POSITION SENSOR" does it have anything to do with communication with the tachometer.  If so, could the "Cam Position Sensor" actually cause the tachometer to erratically jump around and basically go haywire ? ? ? ?

One issue that was going on with my bike just before I tore it down in the past couple of weeks is that my tachometer began jumping around erratically ranging from 3000 RPMS upto 7000 RPMS just literally bouncing around and then settling down and then bouncing again....just as I mentioned very erratic...and so in the process of everything I have been trying to determine a root cause for that as well.  Any ideas anyone?

Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:39:31 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline RedFXR2

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #17 on: Thursday, June 28, 2012. 05:19:20 AM. »
"......would there be any communication being conveyed from the "Cam Position SENSOR" to the tachometer that could result in the tachometer erratically jumping around?  In other words if there is a "CAM POSITION SENSOR" does it have anything to do with communication with the tachometer.  If so, could the "Cam Position Sensor" actually cause the tachometer to erratically jump around and basically go haywire ? ? ? ?

One issue that was going on with my bike just before I tore it down in the past couple of weeks is that my tachometer began jumping around erratically ranging from 3000 RPMS upto 7000 RPMS just literally bouncing around and then settling down and then bouncing again....just as I mentioned very erratic...and so in the process of everything I have been trying to determine a root cause for that as well.  Any ideas anyone?



Hi Tim.  Remember my stories of last year about my tach jumping around?  Then the jumping would get worse?  And then the motor started missing as well?  And the missing got worse until the motor quit?  And after a while on the side of the road, the motor would re-start and run just fine?  All that mystery and all my troubleshooting...wires, plugs, coils, petcock, fuel line, carb, voltage regulator, ignition module?  Well, I was in an indy shop last Fall for something else and started telling the owner about all this and he said his first suspicion would be the cam position sensor--on the plate you're talking about.  More specifically, he said the VAS would sometimes go bad and kill the ignition for no reason.  Once the thing cooled off, or somehow corrected itself, the problem would go away and the bike woiuld again run fine---for a while.  You've already described how those things work--I can see how they could be a problem if they malfunctioned.

The VAS is designed to kill the motor if the bike is tilted over too far.  Trouble is, apparently they can fail by intermittently killing the ignition while the bike is perfectly upright.:

"The vehicle attitude sensor (VAS) is a component of the CMP sensor and a safety feature that protects the motorcycle. Some techs think that attitude is altitude, as in elevation, which completely misrepresenting the attitude sensorís function. The VAS has a magnetic ball that rides in a silicone fluid contained in a V-shaped channel. The VAS is mounted as part of the CMP sensor located on the end of the camshaft, under the old points cover. If the bike tilts at an 80 or more degree angle, as when it is being dropped, the magnetic ball will ride up the channel creating an open circuit with the CMP sensor. This causes the ECM to turn off the fuel pump, fuel injection, and ignition system. The VAS is also powered by 5 volts from the ECM. Mid-year in 1998, H-D introduced the bank angle sensor (#32495-98), also known as the BAS, for the same safety purpose as the VAS. The BAS reduces the angle for engine shutoff from 80 degrees to 55 degrees. Once this sensor is triggered, it must be reset or the bike will not start. To do that, bring the bike back to an upright position, turn the ignition off, and then wait at least 10 seconds. You can the turn the ignition back on and restart the bike."

Anyway, on his advice I replaced my cam position sensor plate.  I haven't had the the problem since.  I even went back and re-installed my old ignition module and coil--still no return of the problem.  So it looks like the indy shop guy was right.  And if you're having a jumping tach, I'd say the next thing you'll see is a miss, a worse miss, and then you'll coast to a stop somewhere.  Not fun.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: Thursday, June 28, 2012. 07:43:49 AM. by RedFXR2 »

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #18 on: Thursday, June 28, 2012. 02:26:12 PM. »
Mike,

Thanks for your input here.  It's valuable.   :up:  As is the input I have received thus far from AJ and Bob.

As I am sitting here with this engine torn apart, and struggling through this maze of grasping what this Cam Position Sensor is all about and what exact functions it performs and how one figures out how to approach the rotation of the plate in the back of my mind given the erratic renderings of how the tachometer was recently acting, I was curious if the Cam Position Sensor might play a part. 

So did you install the Cam Position Sensor Plate yourself or did you have it done by the local indy you mentioned?

Regards,

Tim
« Last Edit: Thursday, June 28, 2012. 02:34:51 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #19 on: Thursday, June 28, 2012. 07:22:44 PM. »
So can anyone tell me how many degrees of "advance or retard" exist within the Cam Position Sensor Plate?

If the slot within the Cam Position Sensor Plate allows for the rotational axis per say, then there is an established maximum "advance" available and a maximum "retard" available as well, thus what are the numbers?

SO which one is done first:
A) tuning the bike for AFR or 
B) and then the aspect of timing through the Cam Position Sensor? 
Is there an absolutel answer to this or a philosophical only approach to this?

There seems to be three aspects to this Cam Position Sensor Plate:

1) A plate that has a rotational axis available to it to either "advance" or "retard" the ignition timing.
2) A Cam Position Sensor
3) A Vehicle Attitude Sensor

Given what Donny Peterson offered above, the Cam Position Sensor:
Is a Hall Effect sensor thatís powered with 5 volts from the ECM.
This sensor interacts with a break (window) in the face of a metal cup that rotates on the end of the camshaft. When this window passes the Hall Effect sensor an electrical pulse is generated back to the ECM. This tells the ECM the position of the camshaft as well as the position of every valve relative to their seats. It also confirms piston location and the degrees of flywheel rotation, since every moving engine component is timed to the others.

What else does the Cam Position Sensor do?
It must some how affect the tachometer, because of what was just shared above?  So if it goes bad it can affect your Tach? 
Is  this true?

Is there a location on the Cam Position Sensor Plate by rotating the plate that there is a exact spot where you have absolutely no "advance" or no "retard"?

Is is this the tool (click here) that AJ provided above that allows this to be figured exactly?

I believe going with a 1994 FXRP Ignition Module HD# 26555-94 combined with the use of the 1994 FLHTP & FLHT VOES Switch HD# 26555-94 which offers a higher (5.5 inch) "lever" will assist in keeping the ignition module slightly longer into a "retard" mode through points of acceleration and will simply provide another methodology of taking advantage of the curve provided within the design of the FXRP Ignition Module.

It would make sense that I know exactly where the location on the Cam Position Sensor Plate that offers no "advance" or no "retard" would be, right?

I am still confused on "static" timing and "dynamic" timing, does using the "tool" above take care of the "static" timing needs?
Can anyone explain this better?

Are there some tuners here that would follow certain steps if this bike were presented to you? 

Did every bike from the factory come with the exact timing (where the Cam Position Sensor Plate is always in the exact same spot for each bike) or were there individual adjustments that were made because of where bikes "perhaps" were being shipped?

I know that "35 degrees of "advance" was discussed above, but does that mean that's where the Cam Position Sensor Plate was placed into a certain position to get that?  So each bike had the Cam Position Sensor Plate turned in a direction for this to occur?

 :fish:

Regards,

"Classic"



« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:47:26 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Online smittyon66

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #20 on: Saturday, June 30, 2012. 04:46:20 AM. »
You're over thinking this. It's actually a lot simpler than you think.

Cam Position Sensor - Performs the same basic function as points. It tells the ign module when to fire the coil.

Static timing - The engine is shut off. Set the crankshaft in the position of initial timing you want then rotate the CPS in the opposite direction of cam travel until it signals the module to fire. This is good for building the engine and initial start-up. Some ign systems like the HI-4 have a LED on them to help with this process.

Dynamic timing - With the engine running, set the engine to the total degrees of advance that you want at a specified RPM. Much more accurate than static timing.

Inductive timing light - A timing light that has a sensor that clamps around the spark plug wire. It picks up the signal by induction rather than a direct connection.

A "dial back" timing light also has a means of adjusting the "apparent" timing. I have an old Snap-on dial back timing light that I've had for about 30 years. It has a dial on the back of it that's graduated in degrees. It doesn't change the timing on the engine, it just programs a delay in the light that corresponds to actual timing. This is really useful if you can only see certain timing marks like TDC. If I want 35 degrees advance at 3000 RPM, I can set the light to 35 degrees, run the fully warmed up engine up to 3000 RPM and line up the TDC mark on the flywheel. Or, if I have my engine running great and want to know exactly what the timing is so I can set it back to that point, I can run the engine up to 3000 RPM, turn the dial until the TDC mark lines up, and read the degrees on the back of the light.

There are many variables that affect what correct timing should be. Compression, combustion chamber shape, cam event timing, fuel octane and quality, a/f ratio, ignition advance curve, altitude, temperature, humidity, the amount of carbon in the heads, ect.

Perhaps the correct timing is best obtained by the way taught to me in a small town garage more than 40 years ago - "Advance her til she pings, then back her off a little!"
Forget the bullsh!t - it's all about two wheels and a motor!

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #21 on: Saturday, June 30, 2012. 05:26:52 AM. »
BTW, when we are talking about advancing or retarding the timing, we are NOT talking about taking the timing to after top dead center on the crankshaft. We're talking about retarding it a few degrees from where it's at. I can thing of no engine that uses ATDC timing. All of them are BTDC.

There is a point where there is no advance or retard. It's called Top Dead Center.

There is a little more interaction between the Cam Position Sensor and the ECM if you have fuel injection. Since you're on the EVO board I assume you are talking carb.
Forget the bullsh!t - it's all about two wheels and a motor!

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #22 on: Saturday, June 30, 2012. 06:55:25 AM. »
Reply #20  :up:  :up:

And I'm sure the engines are static timed at the factory by aligning the triangle on the plate centrally over the triangle on the nose cone.  Saves time and labor cost.
« Last Edit: Saturday, June 30, 2012. 06:59:56 AM. by Ajayrk »
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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #23 on: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:38:37 AM. »
You could use this tool from the right side with a timing light.

http://www.retrocycle.com/cccatalogpage.php?pagenum=1064



I  would imagine that this tool would really help out a lot, but I am not sure it will work with an OEM ignition Module and OEM Cam Position Sensor will it?

If this tool won't work then am I back at trying to do the "static" timing and the "dynamic" timing?


Cam Position Sensor - It tells the ign module when to fire the coil.

Static timing - The engine is shut off. Set the crankshaft in the position of initial timing you want then rotate the CPS in the opposite direction of cam travel until it signals the module to fire. This is good for building the engine and initial start-up. Some ign systems like the HI-4 have a LED on them to help with this process.

Dynamic timing - With the engine running, set the engine to the total degrees of advance that you want at a specified RPM. Much more accurate than static timing.

Inductive timing light - A timing light that has a sensor that clamps around the spark plug wire. It picks up the signal by induction rather than a direct connection.

A "dial back" timing light also has a means of adjusting the "apparent" timing. I have an old Snap-on dial back timing light that I've had for about 30 years. It has a dial on the back of it that's graduated in degrees. It doesn't change the timing on the engine, it just programs a delay in the light that corresponds to actual timing. This is really useful if you can only see certain timing marks like TDC. If I want 35 degrees advance at 3000 RPM, I can set the light to 35 degrees, run the fully warmed up engine up to 3000 RPM and line up the TDC mark on the flywheel. Or, if I have my engine running great and want to know exactly what the timing is so I can set it back to that point, I can run the engine up to 3000 RPM, turn the dial until the TDC mark lines up, and read the degrees on the back of the light.

There are many variables that affect what correct timing should be. Compression, combustion chamber shape, cam event timing, fuel octane and quality, a/f ratio, ignition advance curve, altitude, temperature, humidity, the amount of carbon in the heads, ect.

Perhaps the correct timing is best obtained by the way taught to me in a small town garage more than 40 years ago - "Advance her til she pings, then back her off a little!"


So we have two timing checks, one is "Static" and one being "Dynamic", and we have the "rotation" either in a "advance" direction (clockwise) or a "retard" direction (counterclockwise) of the Cam Position Sensor, if I am grasping your statement correctly....there is no need to do a "static" timing process, nor a "dynamic" timing process, but perhaps the best way is to have the bike on a dyno and simply rotate the Cam Position Sensor in the direction of say "retard" (counterclockwise) first (since my engine no longer stock) say 1 hash mark, and see what the bike does from a run stand point or even seat of the pants in a ride situation. Then repeat the same step again until you see a sign of lost power then, go in the direction of "advance" (clockwise) until a loss of power or detonation occurs then find the spot exactly in between and run with it like that? 

Essentially you have found the "happy" spot? 

Of course if you are doing this under load on a dyno you can see your power numbers affected so that's good, however out on the street you have to have to "listen" for the changes, is this right?

So one merely focuses on the Cam Position Sensor and the rotation of it, then this is there no reason to worry about the "static" or even the "dynamic" timing methods?

Regards,

"Classic"
« Last Edit: Monday, July 02, 2012. 11:37:28 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline Ajayrk

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Re: CAM POSITION SENSOR HD# 32448-95A
« Reply #24 on: Monday, July 02, 2012. 02:30:12 PM. »
Quote
I  would imagine that this tool would really help out a lot, but I am not sure it will work with an OEM ignition Module and OEM Cam Position Sensor will it?

If this tool won't work then am I back at trying to do the "static" timing and the "dynamic" timing?

It will work with a stock ignition.

Set the plate to straddle the little triangle on the nose cone, install the timing device, run the engine and point the timing light to the device and rotate the plate until you have the timing you want.

If your engine is in running condition, try a little experiment, while the engine is at idle advance the plate and note the rpm change.
AJ