Ultima 113" phantom Engine noise

[M.Ereshan]

Has anyone developed a dry metallic sound on their 113" Ultima that sounds like it's the forward cylinder?
I have no loss in oil pressure, no metal in the oil and no loss of oil, power is great, still- I'm thinking rocker arms or it's early sign of a lifter getting ready to blow out again  the sound seems familiar to be, but I can't be sure. I'll probably start tearing into it today- 1st by pulling the rocker boxes off and work my way down to the cam after that.
If anyone has had this noise and found their problem? I'd love to hear their fix! 

B.T.W the motor has failed before and Ultima rebuilt it around the 3,000 mile mark- it's got 4,500 on it since- not a good track record!

[HOGMIKE]

Is this twin cam? or evo style engine? Roller rockers?
 

[rbabos]

I think I remember something  about valve seats coming loose on the early ones.
Ron

[M.Ereshan]

It's an Evo, I pulled the rocker boxes and visually didn't find anything, then I pulled off the lifter blocks- the lifters seem ok, but the lifter boxes have some wear on the sides where the rollers meet the blocks (full lift on cam) - in addition it looks as if there might be some kind of clearance issue because there are some marks on the bottom of one of the blocks from the roller hitting it. I'm seeing light scoring on the blocks and lifters too. - forgot to mention the forward lash on the exhaust valve was tight- the push rod was tight on TDC ... sorry thinking as I go

[M.Ereshan]

Here's what I found- the rollers on the lifters are hitting the base of the lifter blocks- Ultimas service dept. doesnt answer their phone or call back! 

[gryphon]

Frankly I'm surprised you even have a number to call. Not talking bad about Ultima's motors, just their customer service. Does the motor have the stock cam?

[evo58]

whats the lift??
evo

[M.Ereshan]

I'm containing myself from talking bad- but it's under my breath! Grrrrrr! the cam is .640” Lift- I'm assuming the rocker boxes weren't milled down enough, or there is some bounce- it hasn't been over-revved or beat on tho.

[FSG]

It happens.  Too much lift, not enough clearance, weak valve springs or not enough valve spring pressure.

[M.Ereshan]

I have a funny feeling this has happened before  lol 

[M.Ereshan]

I think I'm just going to pick up some gaskets for now and reassemble- maybe file the blocks a little for clearance too. then later get a set of Jim's billet lifter blocks- they're set up to accept a .655" lift cam.

[evo58]

my friend,
take a dremel
a good cut disk
reinforced
open a bottle
and do it yourself..
evo

[M.Ereshan]

Will do evo! I'll open the bottle after tho!

[turboprop]

Jims makes a pretty nice tool to clearance Evo lifter blocks.

[M.Ereshan]

Awesome Turbo! I'll check into it! Thank you much!

[PaJoe]

I think I'm just going to pick up some gaskets for now and reassemble- maybe file the blocks a little for clearance too. then later get a set of Jim's billet lifter blocks- they're set up to accept a .655" lift cam.

Are the "Jims" lifter blocks you talk about for a Harley evo or does Jim's make different ones for the Ultima 113? It looks like Ultima has a different part number for the Ultima 113 and the Harley 80" evo lifter blocks. I am trying to learn which parts are interchangeable.



thanks in advance


joe

[M.Ereshan]

Hi Joe, Yes Ultima has a different lifter block for the 113" I'm assuming it's because they have mega lift cams- the Jims blocks are for large cams too. Unfortunately talking to Ultima to buy or confirm is like calling NASA... Probably because they have a lot of owners that need help.
Even their mailing address is a P.O box!
To answer your question the Jims should work on the 113" but not stock because of the lifter stroke. I will confirm before I buy at over $400.00 for the Jims 
Instead of re-writing this -my real assumption would be that the Jims and Ultima high-lift blocks will work on all evos, But stock wouldn't because the lifters would hit the blocks due to the high lift on the cam.

[turboprop]

The ultima 113 is a 4" bore engine and uses a longer pinion shaft and special application lifter blocks. Standard Harley OEM style lifter blocks will not work on that engine case. That case uses the same style lifter blocks as every 4" bore S&S evo style engine. Ultima has got their own version of the SA lifter blocks that they copied from S&S.

[M.Ereshan]

Turbo- on my last post would I be correct??- can you check it- 113"  Blocks on the 113" should work on stock, but stock wont on the high lift cams... no?
I'm guessing the 113" have more clearance to accommodate the high lift.

[PaJoe]

Thanks, the only real complaint I have about owning an Ultima engine is getting parts from Jireh, they have good prices but usually do not have anything I need in stock. 

[turboprop]

Turbo- on my last post would I be correct??- can you check it- 113"  Blocks on the 113" should work on stock, but stock wont on the high lift cams... no?
I'm guessing the 113" have more clearance to accommodate the high lift.

The lift is not the issue as the blocks can easily be clearanced. The issue is the foot print of the lifter blocks. The S&S 4" bore Evo (and larger) engines are laid out differently. I do not know for sure about the ultimo, but they are a pretty good copy of the S&S design. The easy way to tell if standard 80" eve blocks will work is to compare gaskets. Same thing with the S&S stuff, buy a $2 gasket and compare foot prints. Lifters blocks can easily be filed on to allow for higher lift cams.

[M.Ereshan]

ok, went to Jireh and cross referenced the S&S stuff and it's the same  this is good! makes my options easier for ordering parts- being Ultima service dept. is crap. Turbo, you hit the nail on the head! I now see what you mean about the 4" bore- saves me a waisted trip to my Harley Dealer- maybe the Screaming Eagle 110" has the 4" bore too? I'll give'em a ring just in case. thank you!

[turboprop]

No. Your Ultima 113 is an Evo motor. That SE 110 is a twin cam motor and has very different different lifter blocks. 

[Powerglides]

The S&S lifter blocks for the 4" bore (and larger) have the same footprint as the OEM blocks. They all use the same gasket, which fits right back to 1948. (Front and rear are different). The difference in the lifter blocks for the larger bore motors (which have the SA crankcases with the .250" camchest offset), is that the counterbores for the pushrod tube location are machined at a different angle to allow for the offset.
I don't work on Ultimas, so I couldn't comment on these.
There are only two reasons that this can happen on motor that hasn't floated the valves. Lifter clearances not machined deep enough for the cam being used (most likely), or the lifter block decks on the crankcase machined too deep (uncommon, but you might have rogue cases). This would move the whole of the lifter block closer to the camshaft. Also, some camshafts achieve their higher lift by reducing the base circle (which keeps the lifter rollers away from the blocks), whilst others will have an increased lobe height (which moves the rollers closer to the block). So a brand X cam may have issues, whereas a brand Y of similar lift may not.
Considering where you already are with this, I would pull the cam cover and dry build it (lifter blocks, gaskets, and lifters only, not pushrods). Rotate the engine and check for clearance issues. The outboard end of the cam will be unsupported, but as there will be no load on it, you can steady it against the pinion and breather gears.

[M.Ereshan]

According to Jireh the 113" S&S lifter blocks are the same as the 113" Ultima... at least by their part numbers- it seams Ultima's are built very close to the same specs. S&S motors.