Author Topic: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops  (Read 3257 times)

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Offline Spudislandbiker

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Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 07:51:32 AM. »
Well I screwed up on replacing my cam tensioners. If you remember, I asked the question whether to replace or keep the stock lifters that had 70,000 km on them. They looked great. I kept the old ones, I was wrong and should have listened to the group.....

That said, between my inexperience and frugality I think my intake valve kissed the piston on the rear cylinder, or the intake touched the exhaust valve. When I was adjusting the pushrods the rear cylinder intake lifter's spring wasn't compressing when I was preloading the push rod. I didn't realize the significance of this, my inexperience. The lifter did not compress at all, so when I preloaded the push rod, the lifter was acting as a solid lifter rather than a hydraulic lifter. So I essentially opened the intake valve by the extension of the preload (2.5 turns). I turned the bike over, by hand, and did not hear any "bad" noises. So I started the bike. There was lots of ticking/clacking going on. I shut it down.

I then took the rear lifters out again and found the intake lifter stuck in the extended position.

So, what are you predictions to how much damage I've caused?

What should I do to assess the damage?

Compression?

Leak Down?

Or do I need to tear open the engine?

Thoughts and opinions welcome.

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #1 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 07:54:41 AM. »
Probably depends on the motor.. Stock you might be OK.. Leaking it is the best for this stuff..

Max
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Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #2 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 07:58:46 AM. »
I suppose it depends on how "Hard" they hit.

Offline derek81

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #3 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 08:06:47 AM. »
first off, since you believe there might be damage, a leakdown needs to be done, compression test won't tell you much diagnostically...

that said...

lifters don't "compress", that's the point of them... they bleed down... the theory is that fluid (oil) does not compress, it bleeds at a specified rate dictated by the size of the holes in the lifter valve and body... the one that "is stuck" is actually working well, you should not be able to push it down manually with your finger

if when installing your pushrods, you were able to fully "compress" some of the lifters and then continue with your 2.5 turns, YOU were creating solid lifters and way too long pushrods and they didn't have enough oil in them to start with... the pushrods should be turned out until lightly seated in the pockets and then extended the additional 2.5 turns

Online splitting_lanes

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #4 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 08:08:05 AM. »
I wouldn't assume that anything hit anything from a loud clacking noise....

do a compression check, it's a simple and fast way to determine if theres anything else you need to do -- my thoughts are that the compression check will show if a valve isn't seating properly, which would be the result of damaging contact....

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #5 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 08:19:34 AM. »
how long did you run the engine?? Maybe the lifters where not pumped back up?? pushrod not in the rocker pocket, could be tons of things or nothing at all.

New engines started up can make lifter noise for 30-60 seconds. Most times you hear them clatter and then you will hear that noise start to go away and then it is gone.  leak it down .. maybe the valve to valve to is close and you rolled it over and it clipped when the lifters where not fully bleed down.

Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #6 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 08:30:23 AM. »
Didn't run the engine too long, less then 30 sec. I thought of the lifters not full of oil and that they'd need oil back in them as they were out of the bike for over a month. But the clacking was too much for me to allow the bike to run. Oil pressure was at approx. 45 PSI so there should have been enough to fill the lifter.

When putting them in the bike, I assumed they were bled down. I put some oil in them before start up. I checked all four lifters. I'm able to push in the plunger on three and the fourth will not budge, even after the lifter is drained. So I'm assuming that is the faulty lifter and was acting like a solid lifter. When adjusting the push rods, the preload, as I understand it, is actually placing the plunger in the middle of its stroke, so yes lifters do compress.

Offline Tsani

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #7 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 08:37:12 AM. »
When you get around to redoing the pushrods / lfters, remember to let each lifter rest for 10 to 15 mins after making the adjustments. Takes a little time but worth it.
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Online Barrett

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #8 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 08:44:37 AM. »
how long did you run the engine?? Maybe the lifters where not pumped back up?? pushrod not in the rocker pocket, could be tons of things or nothing at all.

New engines started up can make lifter noise for 30-60 seconds. Most times you hear them clatter and then you will hear that noise start to go away and then it is gone.  leak it down .. maybe the valve to valve to is close and you rolled it over and it clipped when the lifters where not fully bleed down.
I almost took my lifters out again because of this, they clattered so I shut it down, I went back out to hear it again and it went away and has been running great since then. If they had one of those little smiley guys wiping the sweat from his forehead I would have inserted it.

Offline cyrus

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #9 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 09:31:10 AM. »
You said quote "I then took the rear lifters out again and found the intake lifter stuck in the extended position."
Do you mean the hydraulic lifter is stuck in the bore in the extended position?
If the lifter won't drop with the cam, perhaps the lifter bore is distorted. The shorter cam plate bolts must not be interchanged with the cam cover bolts.

Cyrus in Halifax, NS

Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #10 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 10:11:18 AM. »
You said quote "I then took the rear lifters out again and found the intake lifter stuck in the extended position."
Do you mean the hydraulic lifter is stuck in the bore in the extended position?
If the lifter won't drop with the cam, perhaps the lifter bore is distorted. The shorter cam plate bolts must not be interchanged with the cam cover bolts.

The plunger in the lifter was stuck and could not be pushed down, even after being drained of all oil. So the problem is that one of the lifters' plunger is stuck, not hydro-locked, not full of oil, but stuck in the top of the lifter.

Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #11 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 10:12:15 AM. »
What are some 'good vs 'bad leak down results?

Offline Tsani

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #12 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 10:32:43 AM. »
What is your build? That would help in saying what a good number is for compression, but generally speaking,for leakdown,  if you have a large difference say 5% or greater, you have problems. It's going to depend on your gauge, fittgs, wear and tear on the build, etc.
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Offline Tsani

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #13 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 10:38:51 AM. »
Ok, I see you have a 05 Roadking with 44kmi on it. 95 kit. You may be ok. Depends on the "kit". What was your squish set at? Pistons above, below, zero deck?  Stock valves? Cam?
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Offline derek81

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #14 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 10:54:09 AM. »
What are some 'good vs 'bad leak down results?

according to HD, anything over 12% "requires further attention"... i usually say no more than 10%, however it is supposed to be done at operating temp which if you suspect valve damage i would not recommend achieving... this can alter your results though as more air can leak past a cold piston and rings than it would at operating temperature.

more importantly though, and the beauty of the leakdown test, is that you get to find out WHAT the problem is if it is leaking excessively... make sure timing plug is removed, the cylinder being tested is at TDCC and throttle held at WOT... as the air is being pumped into the cylinder if the leakdown gauge is showing excessive leak the next step it to listen/feel where air is escaping... carb/throttle body = intake valve problem, exhaust pipe = exhaust valve problem, timing plug = piston/ring problem... also, unless you use the HD p/n 35667A Leakdown Tester, then you have to set your own input pressure... the HD one is set at 50psi... i usually set my MAC Tools tester at 70psi, but i wouldn't go much higher

anyways, none of that can be done with a compression test and they can be misleading because a compression tester build and holds pressure, so even if you have an issue, it can still build pressure if you keep turning the motor over. also, you don't have the benefit of know WHAT the problem is, just that you may have one

also, with the leakdown test, the results aren't skewed by what performance parts you have

Offline hrdtail78

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Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #15 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 11:38:30 AM. »
Always good habit to make sure pushrods can spin freely by hand before spinning the engine over.

I'd throw a leak down on it and see what it does. Best thing about this test is you can hear where the pressure is leaking out. Intake, exhaust, or breather.  More so than just % of lose on a fresh engine.
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Offline hrdtail78

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Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #16 on: Friday, April 15, 2011. 11:40:03 AM. »
Were you able to take the lift in question apart?  Only true way to see if all the oil is actually out of it.
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Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 04:55:41 AM. »
Thank you all for your help.

Update: I built a leak down tester as per
Cylinder Leak Down Tester,How To Build


So I removed the old lifters and replaced them with 'new Harley "B" lifters. Before I re-installed the pushrods I decided to do a 'cold' leak down test with the valves all closed (no pushrods). Front cylinder was 12% the rear cylinder was 15%. I used 100 PSI, as it was easier to calculate the percentage leaked. I was very encouraged. I know something was hitting that wasn't supposed to.

I then re-installed the pushrods. Made absolutely sure they were installed correctly. I turned the engine over, no 'bad' noises. So I fired it up. No clacking, not as quiet as I hoped, but it was running well and was relatively quiet. Might hve to play with the pushrods' length.

All that said, I started to try to to do a 'warm' leak down test and I was still using 100 psi. I couldn't get the engine to stay at TDCC. It would rotate. This weekend was my anniversary, so I couldn't spend too much time on my bike... :)

I think I'll try 50 psi to see if that'll work better. I tried to have my wife hold the rear brake to stop the engine from turning over, but couldn't.

Again thank you all. Again thoughts and opinions are welcome.




Offline derek81

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 06:06:26 AM. »
where was the air escaping from during the 1st attempt on the 15% cylinder?

when doing this procedure solo i usually do use the rear brake method, but there are a couple things that i do to make the method work:

first of all 1st gear is best. you also don't want to just push down on the rear brake, you need to pump it up until it gets as stiff as possible and then hold it down HARD. i actually use a tie-down strap with 1 hook on the brake pedal and the other hook to the bike lift and really cinch it down... a helper would have to be not only pretty strong, but also have quite a bit of endurance as it's not the fastest procedure in the world. lastly it helps if the rear wheel is not jacked up, i know it has to be up to spin the motor over to TDCC, but once it's there and brake is tied down i lower the jack back down.

the other alternative is to use a primary locking tool, although it's not as precise in holding at the exact spot you need it to and also the motor could decide to spin forward OR backwards when pressure is applied.

the best method is to remove the compensator and have a strong assistant hold the sprocket shaft in place with a holding/turning tool... i made this tool by welding an old race car steering wheel to an old sprocket shaft extension (the most inboard part of the compensator assembly that actually splines to the sprocket shaft)... i say a strong person, but if the cylinder is at true TDCC it's actually much easier to hold still with this method than someone trying to hold the rear brake

Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 06:36:38 AM. »
The rear cylinder intake was the culprit that started this whole process off. That said, most of the air I could detect was coming from the intake valve, back through the breather, or at least that's where it seemed to be coming from. I have to admit that I didn't put much emphasis on the 'cold' leak down as the cylinders where at the bottom of their stroke, not at the top.

I will re-try this week after warming the motor up. I'll put it in 1st gear and tie down the rear brake. The other possibility is that the clutch is also slipping, allowing the crank to rotate with the rear wheel holding steady. Hopefully not.

Combining all this with using 50 psi, hopefully will give me an accurate leak down reading.

I really like the primary holding tool and I do plan on swapping out the compensator for a SE compensator. However, I can't afford that right now. If I did, I'd certainly look at fabing up a similar tool.

Again thank you,


Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 07:09:39 AM. »
I'm wondering if the valve didn't hit the piston, but touched the exhaust valve on the way by.


Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 07:23:42 AM. »
Quote
first of all 1st gear is best.

What would first gear be the best??  Torque generated by the LD test at the crank would be multiplied by the drive train at 10 to 1 instead of 3 to 1..

Quote
the best method is to remove the compensator and have a strong assistant hold the sprocket shaft in place with a holding/turning tool...

Why not use a breaker bar on the comp nut / bolt and hook on a crash bar or foot peg?

Max
 
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Offline Spudislandbiker

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 07:37:32 AM. »
I just got off the phone with a buddy and explained my dilemma. He's convinced that the valves nicked each other rather than the vale kissing the piston. He referenced the risk of putting too high of a cam which will lead to valves nicking rather then hitting the piston.

All that said, he's also concerned that the valve might have cracked a piece off and the only way to check that is to remove the heads and inspect.

I'm still going to do the leak down test, but I'm strongly leaning towards removing the heads to inspect everything well to give me some piece of mind.

Just to think I bought collapsible pushrods so I wouldn't have to do all this work...... http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/Smileys/classic/emcry.gif

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 07:49:04 AM. »
Quote
I just got off the phone with a buddy and explained my dilemma. He's convinced that the valves nicked each other rather than the vale kissing the piston. He referenced the risk of putting too high of a cam which will lead to valves nicking rather then hitting the piston.

Need to have quite a bit of overlap and bigger valves to do that on a stock HD head.. Generally it would have to be way over cammed in which case you don't know what is going to hit..

Max

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Offline Rags722

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Re: Piston Kisses Valve - Oops
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday, April 19, 2011. 08:00:29 AM. »
Guess I gotta ask the dumb question.  If the owner is pretty sure something hit, in spite of all the tests that can be run, wouldn't he be better off pulling the heads and checking for a dinged valve or piston?  It'd not like he has to pull the motor and ship it to a builder 1000 miles away.  All he's out is the cost of some gaskets and time to be sure he dosen't have a more expensive problem 10 hours from now.

This thread sort of reminds me of a story about a bunch of wise men sitting arond a fire debating how many teeth a horse had.  They discussed the way a horse ate and chewed, why his mouth was different from a human or a cow, but still didn't/couldn't come up with a number they could agree on.  Some guy listening to the debate said "there is a horse outside, why not just go out and count his teeth?".  He was run out of the building for being a fool.  OK, go ahead and chase me out of the building, but if it was my motor, I'd want to take a peek inside.