Big Inch Touring Build...110" or 117"?

[Kleetus]

I'm preparing to do a touring build on an 03 E-Glide with carb. Bike has 120K miles so I'm buying a new SE 4 3/8 stroker crank and have a set of 06 heads to have ported. I want "big torque" so I'm considering the Axtell 110" or 117" kit. Axtell's web site reports the 110" to have a CR of 9.7:1 and the 117" at 10.25:1. Depending on which kit I go with will determine which cams I select and how the heads are prepared. I'd like to keep the valve train simple with a moderate lift that doesn't require roller rockers. How much lift can the 06 heads provide with the OEM springs? (KISS) Considering the MIkuni HSR 45 if I can find a cruise control bracket.

I want a streetable engine that can be a daily driver, runs cool, gets good mileage but that can pull me and the wife (#400) plus pull a trailer. Oh, and I'd like the cost to be sensible. I do plan to have the Timken bearing conversion when the cases are bored.

So, would the 117" @ 10.25:1 CR be too twitchy or with the right selection of cam (Wild Things 2G or Woods 6G) be a good smooth runner?

Is 9.7:1 CR on the 110" too low for the kick in the pants I'm looking for?
I built this motor at 22K into a 95" 4 years ago with Andrews 26G's and it has lasted very well with only minor issues. My thoughts are that if I keep it simple this build should give me the same reliability and service. Any advice you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks and Happy New Year!

Kleetus

[Bagger]

Hey Kleetus

Here's a build FLTRI did:  Post #31 http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=3168.20

4 3/8" Stroke (welded & plugged)
Kuryakin 57mm TB
SE Injectors 4.89 gm/s
SE 110 Heads massaged with manual compression releases
Andrews TW60 cam (Considering a cam change for more low-end TQ)
Reivera Pro Clutch with AIM lockup
Stock 1.2kw starter
1 1/8" Belt

"I'd like to hear from guys that actually have a 117" -131" that have put 50,000-80,000 miles on that build touring."

I'm not sure if there are too many low compression 117-131 touring baggers out there. Most get talked into....or talk themselves into making big power so long-term reliability naturally goes away.

I have an 03RG w/117ci TC with a bit over 15,000 without reliability problems, however I have an engine w/175ccp and only needs 1 release when it is hot (85+) out and the engine has been run hard for a long period.

I have made 2 trips from SF bay area to Vegas (1 to get married in the Venetian on a friggin gondola! ) in the middle of summer (90-110deg) cruising @ 90+ mph for hours at a time. Also have toured the Sierras numerous times from sea level to 8500 ft @ over 85degs. Also have been caught in stop and go traffic @ over 95degs many times in area like Sacramento, Modesto, Bakersfield, etc. Even long enough to get into the ETMS a couple times temporarily killing the rear cylinder (best thing HD has done to save engines IMO), which scared the crap out of me till I figured out what was happening.

I do have tall gearing: stock DD5spd that equals the DD6spd (same 28tooth compensator gear). I know, I give up that drag racing acceleration, but that is not what my bagger is all about.
I guess I use a bit of the "more TQ less gears needed philosophy". IE: 8,000-10,000hp Dragsters only need 1 or 2 gears to get to 300+mph.......and I'm cheap!

It is not a Dyno King and only makes a bit over 120hp/132TQ, and it accomplishes this with the stock "Y" pipe and Supertrapp megaphone slipons w/closed end caps.
I tried to build a reliable stump-puller without being concerned with "peak numbers". Sound familiar?
As always, JMHO, Bob

[Hawg Holler]

I don't have personal experience, but a friend of mine with an Ultra and the 117 engine has had nothing but trouble. The engine burned up in Sturgis two years ago ruining his and his friends' vacations. He's constantly fiddling around with his compression releases, which have stuck open a couple of times and left him beside the road. The motor's been down three times this year and he's throwing in the towel now that he's spent thousands of dollars trying to keep the thing running. It was pumping more oil out the breather than through the engine and his engine builder said it's a hopeless case. So he's going back with a brand new engine, probably a 110. He could have bought another Ultra for what he'll have in the engines for this bike.  I can't think of a more reliable build than the 95 incher with 26 cams. Whatever you do, good luck with it.

[FLTRI]

The best advice I can offer is the S&S 124 crate motor. Torque monster with great manners. Warranty they stand behind. A lot out there and the only problems I've heard of is when the owner starts dickin' around for more power. Then its too much compression and hard to start, detonation, etc.
Add up all the stuff to do a 110/117 and you will be at the mercy of the builder if and when you have problems. The only reason I didn't do it was because I have EFI and that would be another grand to get it right.
Buy the crate 124, bolt it in and go enjoy yourself.
Just MHO,
Bob
PS - I think you can get a great deal on these if you look around.

[Kleetus]

Kelvin,

That's a great report. Having the 06 heads, I doubt I could obtain the low ccp he got because he's using those big chamber heads. Hopefully we'll hear from some of the shops that have built these big inch motors for this purpose. As mentioned in another post, the high compression issue can be a killer for a daily driver so the 110" with the 9.7 CR is looking pretty good.

Time to go to work...
Kleetus

PS- I got your map. Very cool!

[02FYRFTR]

If you are going to keep the motor for the long haul then by all means buy the S&S stroker flywheel set as they are rebuildable and S&S will supply parts so they can be rebuilt.  The SE assemblies are a one time shot if you need parts they cannot be had nor is there anyone that can completely rebuild or supply new parts. S&S will rebuild their assemblies !!!  If you really dislike S&S then purchase the real Jim's assembly as they will rebuild them !!!  Be prepared for the JIm's run around !

[Don Dorfman]

You could save a boat load of money and build a strong mild 4" stroke 107 with Axtell cylinders. Have your cranked worked by Hoban and Timken fitted. Some mild head work (your heads not 06), reasonable (9.1/1 corrected) compression and away you go, cam many to choose from. If you already bought the SE crank then 117" same plan. Would skip 110" but 113" is a viable option with HD barrels and CP pistons. Pistons need to be dished on the 117 or 113" to get the compression in the range I mention and or some chamber massaging which is fine with that big bore.

[GoFast.....]

I like Don's thought on this. A 107 is budget big motor build. Boreing your own cylinders which are as good as material as you can buy 120.00 here in Denver to bore them, stroker flywheel, port your heads and pick your cam. For a no hassle carb. I like the CV because they are not as senstive to Altitude change, like a 44 or a 51 cv. This bike will have plenty of power, Harley parts and be able to service anywhere. It will have plenty of power for you, your moma and trailer. Its what I am building and the only major non Harley part in it are the cams. We will see what it can do here in about a month. I'm thinking 120hp and 115 tq should be about right.

[FXDBI]

Try someones enginered kit don't get into a science project and end up disappointed .Headquarters has lotsa 113 kits on the road with high milage that have been very dependable by all accounts. Got 2 brothers running there products and they are sweet rides.
http://www.head-quarters.com/

Personally I wouldn't go 110 because then your stuck 110 due to the way the case is machined for the base 0-ring but that's just my opinion am sure lots wont agree.....Bob

[FLTRI]

Just because I've been ignored for my comment about S&S124 crate engines:
The retail price for a 124 is a bit over $9,000.
A simple Google search revealed www.bethania-garage.com with 124s in-stock for $6,395. And I'm sure there are many more willing to reduce inventory at this time.
Install the new engine then sell your engine for say $2,000+, and you can have you dream torque monster for about $4,500.....including installation!

Granted it is not a budget built 107, but you were considering a big torque monster 110/117, right?

In my experience both personal (my own 117) and professional (we build big engines daily) I don't believe $4,000 for a great engine with *warranty can be matched by building your own, of course without any official warranty.  These engines, when they get this big, are subject to reliability problems due to so many variables from "custom" builds with more than one source for parts.

Not trying to say you need to do a 124, but if what you want is a turn-key reliable torque monster that starts effortlessly AND get a warranty from a stand-up company, this is my recommendation.
Also keep in mind I have nothing to sell but the tune afterwards. LOL!


*http://www.sscycle.com/catalog17/Warranty/html/Warranty.htm

"Engines specifically designed for and sold with the S&S Intelligent Spark Technology ignition system and assembled at S&S are covered by a special thirty-six (36) month warranty on any street application  displacement under 120” and covered by a special twenty four (24) month warranty on any street application displacement over 120”

JMHO,
Bob

[FLTRI]

Bagger,
You didn't know, and couldn't mention, that little venture cost me over 6,500, and I get the employees discounts from my shop as well as HD, so it would have cost over $8,000, labor NOT included.
Then I see all these 124s come for tunes and the customers tell me they are in the project less than I am for my 117.
Bob

[Kleetus]

Just because I've been ignored for my comment about S&S124 crate engines:
The retail price for a 124 is a bit over $9,000.
A simple Google search revealed www.bethania-garage.com with 124s in-stock for $6,395. And I'm sure there are many more willing to reduce inventory at this time.

Bob,
I wasn't trying to ignore your post; just replying to Kelvin (Bagger) as he and I had a long conversation about this Saturday while it rained. I think your opinions about the S&S 124" are excellent and if I could find a deal I'd consider it. I looked at the one in your post but discovered it to be an EVO 124. I like having a 24 month warranty with the IST ign. Thanks for contributing to this thread.

Don,
I'm also considering the excellent ideas of your post regarding the 107" build idea. I would use my current heads but they have a mild port by SBC 4 years ago and now it seems that no other head porter wants to touch them. Not sure why but just in case I picked a set of 06 heads. If we did a 107" with a 9.4:1 CR would the Andrews 26G cams I have be too small?
Thanks ,
Kleetus

[FLTRI]

OOPs sorry Kleetus,
In my haste I just picked the first 124 I saw. It's almost like EVOs are gone and everything is now TwinCam. LOL!!! Looks like $7100 from them for the TC124.

However, if you have the time to let your fingers do the walking (old phonebook yellowpages ad hype for research and call. LOL) I'll bet you will find some of the custom/chopper bike shops and maybe even aftermarket bike mfgs have these in sitting on the floor and need to turn them into cash.

Here is a convenient website with links to custom/chopper builds and mfgs.
Bob
PS - Just pullin' on ya a bit for the comment about ignoring me.

[KingofCubes]

Different options for these 110's and 117's that I have had very good experience with is when using the R&R welded and cnc ported heads and have found that with these heads and cams that statements like "big engines run hot" and "big engines don't last long" don't apply because they take so much heat out of the engine and run so much smoother because of the balanced air flow it's amazing just how much better and more fun they are. For instance I have two S&S engines (one a 107" and one a 113") that were finicky and not very torquey until I did the heads. I also have an 01 Dyna with these heads and Ron from Axtells rode it a while back and said "why would anyone need any more than this?" The heads are where it's at!

[Don Dorfman]

I have no issue with the SBC heads I have done a few. They are like half finished already. The intake side is fine and the exhaust needs a lot of work, at least the Scotsmans I have done, both had 1.900 intakes and 1.6 exhaust valves.

[HotRock]

Kleetus.........man I have to agree with Bob on this one.   You can get the S&S 124 Hot Set up kit which will be a little less expensive than the Crate 124.   But whatever you do, go for the most cubic inch deal you can find.   The old saying goes there is no sub for cu in for a torque motor in a touring rig.   There are many cams that fit the bill with low lift and reliability.  You can always sell the 06 heads and get your money out of them.
Personally my ride is a S&S 116" Hot Set Up with standard 625 cams.   Got a buddy with a 124 that runs andrews 59G cams with low compression using S&S dished pistons.  Wow! Talking about a smooth running street motor with gobs of torque.  We both run and swear by the IST ignition.
HotRock

[GoFast.....]

Bob, the only problem I have with that is I do not think it is 4000.00 out the door and a S&S 124 is dutuned from the Factory about  118 hp. Plus I would not like it if a hot 107 went by me. Its all good but the 107 is a budget build compaired to the 124" 8000.00 +labour. If you got deep pockets and also want to fix the low output 124 so people with much less do not go by you and do not mind breaking the S&S warranty. I just do not want people to thing you are getting some kind of bad boy 124". They have warranty issues and are not going to send it out HOT and also back it up.

[DarrellV]

Kleetus, email me I'd like to pick your brain about your stock motor. Darrellv@cinci.rr.com

[Don Dorfman]

I would not do the 124 kit, get the bottom up purposely built warrenty motor. I would jump from the 107 I suggested to the 124 and don't dabble. You will find the best bang for the buck that way. Many sell their original motors and then the deal gets very sweet. Many have found that just some minor head cleanup and a little added CR is all it takes to make the 124" and animal but it is very tractable and warranty covered right out of the box. The old G carbed TC would do 125/125 all day long with a less than perfect pipe.

[BAKON]

I wish I had done the 124 instead of the HTCC route to 95. About half way there in cost and to go any further I will pass it just doing the crank right.

[Kleetus]

Kleetus, email me I'd like to pick your brain about your stock motor. Darrellv@cinci.rr.com

I sent you and e-mail...
Kleetus

[HILLSIDECYCLE]

Kleetus,
Take a peek at the Wood 44 Magnum.
Might be right up your alley for a no-frills 110-117 build.

[FLTRI]

Bob, the only problem I have with that is I do not think it is 4000.00 out the door and a S&S 124 is dutuned from the Factory about  118 hp. Plus I would not like it if a hot 107 went by me. Its all good but the 107 is a budget build compaired to the 124" 8000.00 +labour. If you got deep pockets and also want to fix the low output 124 so people with much less do not go by you and do not mind breaking the S&S warranty. I just do not want people to thing you are getting some kind of bad boy 124". They have warranty issues and are not going to send it out HOT and also back it up.

Gotta say the 10-15 124 crate motors I've tuned right out of the box make between 120-125 hp not 118hp. Maybe if it wasn't tuned or tuned correctly. You know there is a bit in the tune.
Also as I stated there are deals for these engines virtually everywhere due to the economy for 7100 and below. Just takes a little effort to find one for a deep discount.

"They have warranty issues and are not going to send it out HOT and also back it up" Do you know anyone who will offer a 2 year parts and labor warranty for any 124" other than S&S?
Do you know anyone that will warrant a hot engine, period?
IMO the reason they offer the 2 years warranty is because they know the hot (read: aggressive compression and ign timing) engine simply do not hold up.
As far as getting passed by a hot 107, if you are comparing 2 Ultra CLassics loaded with passenger and 70 lbs luggage, etc, with all due respect I beg to differ with you as cubic inches and torque are king in this application.

Remember we are not talking about a FXD/FXR or even a Softail street hot rod, at least that isn't what I've heard from Kleetus.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

[Kleetus]

Wow...this is all great stuff! I definitely have some shopping to do. I had a good conversation with Don and am still considering a big inch mild build. I think this might suit my purposes.
As I finalize the deal I will keep this string posted. Heck, we might even call it the 2009 HTT Sleeper Build.
Thanks for all of your responses. I sort of feel the love...

Happy New Year to all!

Kleetus
BTW..it was 65 degrees and sunny here in ATL today.  Sorry guys....

[HotRock]

Yo Kleetus,  I see you're from Atlanta, yeee hawww!   I'm just out in Stone Mountain, give me  call if you like.   770 938 0584
We can discuss more at length big motors.
Jerry