Author Topic: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression  (Read 13156 times)

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Offline Hillsidecyclecom

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #75 on: Saturday, February 26, 2011. 09:52:23 AM. »
It would. :agree:
Saw evidence of just this same scenaio, from Bruce @ Horsepower Express.
117"/10.2 cr/Wood 6/HPI 55/58/our Stage IV head/S/E slip-on mufflers(Dyna)
118.5 hp/135 plus ft lbs.
Good one Jim.
Scott
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #76 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 07:32:59 AM. »
So the question remains how do you pull the cylinder fill up from 42-6000 rpms so that we get 140hp with out totally loosing the bottomend torque. Going to the big cams didn't work. Are we now back to the heads?

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #77 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 07:54:40 AM. »
So the question remains how do you pull the cylinder fill up from 42-6000 rpms so that we get 140hp with out totally loosing the bottomend torque. Going to the big cams didn't work. Are we now back to the heads?

You  send the bike over to Joe's Cycle?

Max
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Offline Don Dorfman

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #78 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 08:27:15 AM. »
Just bench racing mind you but I would speculate I could get there but I would be starting with a 103+ head or S&S conventional chamber (the MVAs have good salvage value, no need and too costly to modify them, splice the badges on the 103 heads if you are into that :wink:), 88cc. They have a better CD after rework. Stock 266e or S&S 640 cam or others.
This would be a civil motor come on and run to the end.

Offline noliners

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #79 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 08:54:28 AM. »
Waiting to see some  results with HD S/E Hurricane heads.  If you're looking for performance they outflow anything out there.  I think GMR has some on order.  Maybe with S/S 640 Easy start cams.
« Last Edit: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 09:04:57 AM. by noliners »
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Offline Don Dorfman

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #80 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 10:03:16 AM. »
There you go a plan B
Those heads at close to 11.5/1 and that cam
It will run and hit 140/140 peak+

Offline pwmorris

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #81 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 10:46:04 AM. »
So the question remains how do you pull the cylinder fill up from 42-6000 rpms so that we get 140hp with out totally loosing the bottomend torque. Going to the big cams didn't work. Are we now back to the heads?

Compression-
Here is the out of the box 120R with the 12:1 pistons-

 
Not counting built sportys or VRods, the G2 126" is the only Twin Cam 10.5-1 CR crate motor making over 1.2 HP per cube on a legit dyno that I am aware of; with an upside for more mods to take it to the moon.
That said, spin it anyway you want, change cams all day, or leave it stock out of the crate at 130 square-the 120R is a
 bad azz, affordable, winner from the MOCO that hasn't been seen from them in a long time. I love this motor.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #82 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 12:33:55 PM. »
Now we are getting somewhere. If the 126 can do it at 10.5 to 1 and there are 95, 97,103, 110 motors doing it at 10.5 to 1 and 250ish duration cams then we are back to page one of this thread.
This all started when a cam that would pick up a conventional head failed to do much in this motor. I read all over the net how this cam/head combo was new thinking and was better. Yes the motor company did seem to have a motor that could make the advertised number. This is not an EPA motor so we should expect high performance numbers. I also feel that if it is an advanced head concept that we should be able to make changes to the motor and these numbers should start to appear. At this point the only changes that seem as though they would make the numbers are removing the heads and cam. I'm not trying to trash anything. I just want to understand how and why this head works or does not work. A lot of people buying these and then spending money on cams, labor, and tuning for little gains, and uncommon results from known cam, pipe, tb, compression combinations. To progress we must understand what works and why as well as what does not work and why it didn’t.

Offline Don Dorfman

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #83 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 03:49:45 PM. »
So many of these threads have the same theme, trying to find some sort of high ground for products, the brand, model, and in the end the right combination of parts just works. The MOCO has a lot of talented engineers. They have put together a winner, the combination, IMO partially because they are not tied to EPA constraints. Not exactly out of the box however and that said I speak mainly from the viewpoint of longevity improvements. The heads can be improved but there is not a windfall of enhancements that will improve these that much.  The SE266 cam and even the SE263 look to be just the ticket to scale this motor in  any model, just might as well get into acceptance with that. SE products are "not all crap". Does that guarantee the same or better result with these cams, for example, in another similar size motor. Nope.
Google "coefficient of discharge port"
Next look at the term here "blowdown" and it will give some clues why those MVA heads do an adequate job on this motor.
http://www.auto-ware.com/combust_bytes/valvetiming.html
« Last Edit: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 04:35:18 PM. by Deweysheads »

Offline TedA

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #84 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 04:34:56 PM. »
Thanks for the detailed and honest answer. The snow stopped for a couple days and the roads dried in Michigan I finally got my Street Glide out on the road with the new box stock 120r running through D&D Fat Cats. It is really a hot rod. I did not expect it to rip the way that it does. It is not a torque monster. It reminds me of 500 hp small block Chevy. It flies and is really fun to ride. I cannot wait for the temps to get over 45 degrees again. Teda

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #85 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 04:51:08 PM. »
All manufacturers of heads already have this information so we should accept that all heads are the  best they can be as delivered and stop wasting money on sending them for port and flow work.


Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #86 on: Sunday, February 27, 2011. 08:18:35 PM. »
So the question remains how do you pull the cylinder fill up from 42-6000 rpms so that we get 140hp with out totally loosing the bottomend torque. Going to the big cams didn't work. Are we now back to the heads?

Compression-
Here is the out of the box 120R with the 12:1 pistons-

 
Not counting built sportys or VRods, the G2 126" is the only Twin Cam 10.5-1 CR crate motor making over 1.2 HP per cube on a legit dyno that I am aware of; with an upside for more mods to take it to the moon.
That said, spin it anyway you want, change cams all day, or leave it stock out of the crate at 130 square-the 120R is a
 bad azz, affordable, winner from the MOCO that hasn't been seen from them in a long time. I love this motor.




A little diff view
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline pwmorris

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #87 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 12:03:56 AM. »


A little diff view

[/quote]
Nice.......
« Last Edit: Monday, February 28, 2011. 12:18:00 AM. by pwmorris »
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #88 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 03:50:58 AM. »
Strokerjik
Do you know if that is with the RX267 cam?

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #89 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 04:18:07 AM. »
Strokerjik
Do you know if that is with the RX267 cam?

yes it was.
it was also done with closed end caps and all the disks that the supertrapp mufflers ,built to wegner specs come with. no playing with disks and end caps were done on this tune.
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline Don Dorfman

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #90 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 08:37:50 AM. »
Awesome result and proof positive the parts have been tested and do work well together.
But the 140 torque is not happening and actually it looks like this version may be a little weak off idle to 2,700. No concern of mine but some of the graph chasers would not care for the on cam feel especially when pulling a loaded bagger up a hill in 6th in the summer. Also note this version of the motor is at 12/1 compression

Offline TXCHOP

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #91 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 08:58:01 AM. »
So Jim, ya think there's more in that motor  when it's tuned to potential? I do........

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #92 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 11:02:06 AM. »
Can anyone provide the seat IDs and valve ODs for the MVA and hurricane heads?
Thanks

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #93 on: Monday, February 28, 2011. 08:21:50 PM. »
So Jim, ya think there's more in that motor  when it's tuned to potential? I do........

yea we talked about that very thing at the show. if someone was to play with the end caps and disks??? :bike:
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #94 on: Thursday, March 03, 2011. 04:14:53 PM. »
I found out the MVA and Hurricane heads both use the same intake seat and the id spec at the base is 1.930. Does an one have the intake seat id for the 110 head?

Offline FLTRI

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #95 on: Thursday, March 03, 2011. 04:22:29 PM. »
...especially when pulling a loaded bagger up a hill in 6th in the summer. Also note this version of the motor is at 12/1 compression
It will run just fine...on 104+ race fuel. :gob:
Bob
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Always keep eyes and mind open

Offline pwmorris

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #96 on: Friday, March 04, 2011. 12:44:19 AM. »

It will run just fine...on 104+ race fuel. :gob:
Bob
[/quote]
No doubt.
This is a "race" motor after all specifically for the bagger class...and this 140 plus #'s are with high compression pistons. I still love the pump gas version #'s in the 130's coming from this bad boy.
Due to limited tech manpower, tech teardowns at the track will probably be few and far between...wonder how fast guys will find loopholes in the rulebook-I see a couple already-As what happened with the Destroyer class, those bike where supposed to all be the same and dynoed before each race. Top Tuners were getting huge gains on those motors and I saw pulls ranging from 145-165 HP from the supposedly exact same motors...hmmm...Also motors were "rebuilt" and "freshened up", yet I never saw them checked or tore down after tech to make sure they were legal-
BTW, for a few years I kept 55 gallon drums of C12 in my house garage for my 12.5-1 street/strip FXR and man that stuff smells sweet......
From the 2011 AHDRA rulebook:

Engine: Must be Harley-Davidson SE120R engine as supplied by Screamin' Eagle Performance Parts bearing a valid Harley-Davidson VIN number. Maximum displacement is 120.5 cubic inches with a stroke of 4.625 inches and a maximum bore of 4.070 inches. Camshaft profiles are not restricted. All other engine upgrades are allowed utilizing engine components available from Screamin' Eagle Performance Parts only. No modifications are allowed to any stock or upgraded engine components. All engines must be naturally aspirated and all air must be delivered to the engine through a single, stock, OE or Screamin' Eagle fuel injection throttle body. SE throttle bodies may be modified up to 64mm. Maximum throttle plate diameter shall not exceed 64mm. EFI shall be controlled by an OEM supplied ECM bearing the factory label. Air induction is limited to a single concentric, continuous reducing diameter velocity stack with a maximum opening area of 20 square inches and/or optional air filter. No cups or scoops are allowed. Fuel shall be supplied by a maximum of two (2) stock, OE or Screamin' Eagle supplied fuel injectors. Compression releases are allowed. Crankcase vent tube must be routed to catch can or carburetor air intake system.

Fuel: VP Racing Fuels C-12 is the specified fuel. No Fuel additives and /or combustible oil additives are allowed. Dielectric constant, as per AHDRA testing meter, must match baseline reading of specified fuel. Fuel must match color of specified fuel. Fuel must match AHDRA generated graphs in random Gas Chromatography analysis of specified fuel.



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Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #97 on: Monday, March 07, 2011. 04:29:20 AM. »
unfortunately there was only one draggin bagger,at the  AHDRA season opener. :down:
it didnt do so great. I saw a couple of 12.45 passes out of it. first time racer so there should be gains somewhere for him. just sad there was only one bike qualifying.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #98 on: Monday, March 07, 2011. 04:55:48 AM. »
 S&S tried this with the 124 class and it failed so HD thinks the 120R class will be different?

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: 120R-266E Cams Swapped to TW408-6 Initial Impression
« Reply #99 on: Monday, March 07, 2011. 07:18:44 AM. »
Quote
S&S tried this with the 124 class and it failed

Not sure what you mean buy "failed" I sure it generated visibility, interest, and sales.. Classes like this are only temporary in nature.. Something else comes along after the initial exposure and it's gone.. If it generated enough sales based on time and money involved, then it probably did well.

Max
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