Author Topic: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question  (Read 7900 times)

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Offline Velocity1

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S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 01:09:14 PM. »
S&S travel limited lifters going into my new TC build.  The S&S instructions tell you to bottom the pushrod adjustment till contact is made with the travel limiter, than back off the prescribed number of turns.

My S&S lifters are already pumped up.  At TDC, once I achieve zero vertical lash, how many turns into the lifter should I set the rods?  My pushrods are Crane Easy Install, (28 tpi).  Looking for the easy tried and proven method instead of having to "feel" when the lifter internals have contacted the travel limiter.  Is there as much travel, (.200+), in these travel limited lifters?  Can't believe there would be.

I'd rather use the old convention style of rod lash adjustment.

I searched this subject and got mixed signals..Would appreciate the advice of someone who has been here.

thanks
'02 FX"Custom"ST
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Offline HotRock

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 01:45:52 PM. »
If you prefer to use the standard method of adjusting from the top, then why do you want to put the limiters in the first place.

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Offline LilEvilAmy

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 04:08:21 PM. »
This is the procedure that we use ....
from  http://www.sscycle.com/modules/techtips/index.php?z_catagory=LIKE&x_catagory=&psearch=hl2t&psearchtype=

A. Remove spark plugs.
B. Bring piston to TDC on compression stroke in cylinder to be adjusted. Normally both tappets will be at their lowest point of travel.
C. Extend pushrod adjustment, collapsing lifter until piston assembly is in contact with HL2T spacer and pushrod is tight. If tappets contain oil, as when pushrods are readjusted after engine has been run, or if all oil was not removed during installation, extend pushrod adjustment until valve is open (about five additional turns of adjusting screw). Allow five minutes for hydraulic unit to bleed down. If pushrod can be turned with fingers after bleeding down, lifter is not completely collapsed, and this step must be repeated. NOTE - perform this operation on one cylinder at a time. Do not turn engine until pushrod adjustment is complete. CAUTION - Turning engine while valve is held off the seat could result in valve-to-valve or valve-to-piston contact and serious valve train damage.
D. Loosen pushrod adjustment until pushrod can be rotated with the fingers with slight drag. NOTE - Some engine builders prefer to adjust pushrods another one- half turn looser. This provides additional travel for the valve in the hydraulic piston assembly. Additional travel can improve the ability of the hydraulic unit to pump up and maintain zero valve lash.
E. Tighten lock nut.
~ Li'l Amy & her "Evil Twin" Sportster ~ Detroit, MI ~ Cogito Ergo Zoom ~

Offline Sc00ter

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 04:37:05 PM. »
The travel limiters reduce the lifter valve travel to .100 (stock lifters have .200 travel).  The goal is generally to position the valve in the center of the travel.  Whether you bottom the valve and shorten the pushrod .050 or you contact the valve and lengthen the pushrod .050 really doesn't matter.  Use whichever method you feel more comfortable with - done correctly, either will give you the same result...

The travel limiter is an approx. .100 thick spacer that simply reduces the internal piston travel of the lifter from .200 to .100 ... :up:
« Last Edit: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 04:54:58 PM. by Sc00ter »

Offline Velocity1

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 04:44:35 PM. »
If you prefer to use the standard method of adjusting from the top, then why do you want to put the limiters in the first place.

Not sure I understand the question.  I'm trying to avoid S&S's recommended method of pushrod adjustment, (ie; "bottoming the lifter until you feel contact with the travel limiter, then backing off the adjustment...")  Seems it would be simpler to adjust the pushrods with your fingers until all verticle slack has been removed, then turning the pushrod adjuster into the lifter another 2.8 - 3 turns.)  Seems it would take all the guess work our of the S&S procedure and make adjusting the rod lash simpler. 

Not sure I understand your question about why I would want travel limiter type lifters in the first place.. Am I missing something or was I unclear in my first post?
'02 FX"Custom"ST
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Offline Velocity1

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 04:48:29 PM. »
The travel limiters reduce the lifter valve travel to .100 (stock lifters have .200 travel).  The goal is generally to position the valve in the center of the travel.  Whether you bottom the valve and shorten the pushrod .050 or you contact the valve and lengthen the pushrod .050 really doesn't matter.  Use whichever method you feel more comfortable with - done correctly, either will give you the same result...

The travel limiter is simply an approx. .100 thick spacer that simply reduces the internal piston travel of the lifter from .200 to .100 ... :up:
If I go with old convention, (snug up lash at TDC with fingers), how many turns does it take at 28tpi to achive the .050 preload into the lifter I'm looking for?

Thanks Scooter
'02 FX"Custom"ST
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Offline Sc00ter

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 04:53:10 PM. »
The travel limiters reduce the lifter valve travel to .100 (stock lifters have .200 travel).  The goal is generally to position the valve in the center of the travel.  Whether you bottom the valve and shorten the pushrod .050 or you contact the valve and lengthen the pushrod .050 really doesn't matter.  Use whichever method you feel more comfortable with - done correctly, either will give you the same result...

The travel limiter is an approx. .100 thick spacer that simply reduces the internal piston travel of the lifter from .200 to .100 ... :up:
If I go with old convention, (snug up lash at TDC with fingers), how many turns does it take at 28tpi to achive the .050 preload into the lifter I'm looking for?

Thanks Scooter

1.00" divided by 28 = .035".....so 1 1/2 turns equals .0525"  (.035 + .0175)...  Close enough...   :up:

Offline FSG

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 05:00:38 PM. »
The thickness of the Travel Limiters I have on my desk is .114",  IMO your better off coming off the bottom and shortening the pushrod as per S&S when using limiters, actually I find it easier adjusting pushrods that way even without limiters.

Offline Sc00ter

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 05:18:06 PM. »
The thickness of the Travel Limiters I have on my desk is .114",  IMO your better off coming off the bottom and shortening the pushrod as per S&S when using limiters, actually I find it easier adjusting pushrods that way even without limiters.

I always check the actual travel of each lifter in every set I have used - probably 8 to 10 sets over the years.  The total travel has varied a few thousands either way from .100 total travel, but never a significant amount.  Of course everyone has their own personal preference in what procedure they use, but the goal (my goal) is to center the valve within the travel....

Offline FSG

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 05:33:37 PM. »
Quote
The travel limiter is an approx. .100 thick spacer that simply reduces the internal piston travel of the lifter from .200 to .100 ..

There is a big difference between approx. .100 and a measured .114" , the .114" would reduce the travel from .200 to .086 and applying a .050 preload will have you .036 off the bottom not in the middle.

Offline Sc00ter

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 05:41:17 PM. »
Quote
The travel limiter is an approx. .100 thick spacer that simply reduces the internal piston travel of the lifter from .200 to .100 ..

There is a big difference between approx. .100 and a measured .114" , the .114" would reduce the travel from .200 to .086 and applying a .050 preload will have you .036 off the bottom not in the middle.

I am just saying - that in my experience - .114 would be a huge anomoly...I have never found a spacer more than +/- .006 from .100 thick - typically I find them .103/.104 thick.  And as I said, I always measure the actual travel of each lifter and center the valve within the actual travel - in the extreme case of .114 this would put me .043 off the bottom - which is fine (IMO)...   To each his own...  :up:

Offline Sonny S.

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 06:17:12 PM. »
Quote
The travel limiter is an approx. .100 thick spacer that simply reduces the internal piston travel of the lifter from .200 to .100 ..

There is a big difference between approx. .100 and a measured .114" , the .114" would reduce the travel from .200 to .086 and applying a .050 preload will have you .036 off the bottom not in the middle.

 :up:
I miced 3 sets and they were between .113-.115 .....never .100...don't guess

Offline FSG

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 06:52:12 PM. »
Quote

 :up:
I miced 3 sets and they were between .113-.115 .....never .100...don't guess
:agree:  I've never seen one at .100 or even close for that matter.

Now did Velocity1 measure the limiters he has OR is he using another's approximation ?



Offline Sc00ter

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010. 06:55:56 PM. »
Quote

 :up:
I miced 3 sets and they were between .113-.115 .....never .100...don't guess
:agree:  I've never seen one at .100 or even close for that matter.

Now did Velocity1 measure the limiters he has OR is he using another's approximation ?

Sorry I tried to help the guy out...

Over and out...

Offline Velocity1

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 03:11:45 AM. »
Sorry Guys. Didn't mean to turn this into a science project and certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. 

According to S&S,  their lifters with the limiters have approx. half the travel of a conventional lifter without a limiter, or .200 -.100 thick limiter=.100 travel.

What I'm trying to determine is if I remove the vertical lash between the lifter and rockerarm, (without depressing the lifter plunger), how many turns should I turn the pushrod into the lifter, to achieve correct preload for this style lifter?  (My pushrods are Crane Easy Adjust 28tpi...)

Sorry for the confusion.  My apologies..and I do appreciate everyone's feedback and patience. Maybe I didn't do the best job explaining..

'02 FX"Custom"ST
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Online wfolarry

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 04:28:06 AM. »
The reason for using the travel limiters is the lifter will act like a solid but will retain the hydraulic function of taking up the lash when the motor gets hot. Not adjusting them like S&S says takes that away & it's just a hydraulic lifter. Setting them 1 turn down or 2 it's still a crapshoot.

Offline FSG

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 04:57:27 AM. »
OK, lets just take the half the travel of a conventional lifter without a limiter, or .200 -.100 thick limiter=.100 travel , forget the approx and do the math for your Crane 28 TPI Pushrods so your in the middle of the travel, i.e. .050" down from the top.

Remember TPI = Threads Per Inch  OR if you want Turns Per Inch

28 TPI =  28 turns per 1 inch  , divide by 10 = 2.8 turns per .100 inch , divide by 2 = 1.4 turns per .050 inch

adjust them 1.4 turns , so
Quote from: Sc00ter
1.00" divided by 28 = .035".....so 1 1/2 turns equals .0525"  (.035 + .0175)...  Close enough...  :up:   
probably is close enough and they'll work as hydraulic lifters,

BUT and there is always a but, that is not the correct preload for S&S Travel Limited Lifters, the S&S Instructions say to set them from the bottom and IMO it's nice knowing where that is if you don't know how thick the limiters are.

SnS Pushrods are 32TPI so 1 turn = .031"

Crane Pushrods 28TPI so 1 turn = .035"

There's no apologies necessary, I don't consider a 14% difference to be an approximation.

Offline ICANTD55

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 07:06:06 AM. »
This is the procedure that we use ....
from  http://www.sscycle.com/modules/techtips/index.php?z_catagory=LIKE&x_catagory=&psearch=hl2t&psearchtype=

A. Remove spark plugs.
B. Bring piston to TDC on compression stroke in cylinder to be adjusted. Normally both tappets will be at their lowest point of travel.
C. Extend pushrod adjustment, collapsing lifter until piston assembly is in contact with HL2T spacer and pushrod is tight. If tappets contain oil, as when pushrods are readjusted after engine has been run, or if all oil was not removed during installation, extend pushrod adjustment until valve is open (about five additional turns of adjusting screw). Allow five minutes for hydraulic unit to bleed down. If pushrod can be turned with fingers after bleeding down, lifter is not completely collapsed, and this step must be repeated. NOTE - perform this operation on one cylinder at a time. Do not turn engine until pushrod adjustment is complete. CAUTION - Turning engine while valve is held off the seat could result in valve-to-valve or valve-to-piston contact and serious valve train damage.
D. Loosen pushrod adjustment until pushrod can be rotated with the fingers with slight drag. NOTE - Some engine builders prefer to adjust pushrods another one- half turn looser. This provides additional travel for the valve in the hydraulic piston assembly. Additional travel can improve the ability of the hydraulic unit to pump up and maintain zero valve lash.
E. Tighten lock nut.


I do this. :agree:
 Its really is not that hard and it only takes two beers.
RICK , MA

Online JohnCA58

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 07:15:22 AM. »
I don't know... sounds like your BRT (beer repair time) is pretty low  :hyst:
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Offline Jeffd

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 07:25:00 AM. »
It was hard to tell when the lifter was actually bottomed out when there was oil in the lifter. I pulled the lifters and removed the oil and then it was easy to tell when the lifter was bottomed out.  I backed off about 1/2 turn and all was good.  Bill bishop told me to do it this way.  He recommended only going 1-2 flats.

Offline Sc00ter

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 08:45:47 AM. »
It was hard to tell when the lifter was actually bottomed out when there was oil in the lifter. I pulled the lifters and removed the oil and then it was easy to tell when the lifter was bottomed out.  I backed off about 1/2 turn and all was good.  Bill bishop told me to do it this way.  He recommended only going 1-2 flats.

Depending on the pushrod, that's only .016 to .018...  Let the thrashing begin!   :up:

Offline RevFastEddy

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 10:56:04 AM. »
If you prefer to use the standard method of adjusting from the top, then why do you want to put the limiters in the first place.

Not sure I understand the question.  I'm trying to avoid S&S's recommended method of pushrod adjustment, (ie; "bottoming the lifter until you feel contact with the travel limiter, then backing off the adjustment...")  Seems it would be simpler to adjust the pushrods with your fingers until all verticle slack has been removed, then turning the pushrod adjuster into the lifter another 2.8 - 3 turns.)  Seems it would take all the guess work our of the S&S procedure and make adjusting the rod lash simpler. 

Not sure I understand your question about why I would want travel limiter type lifters in the first place.. Am I missing something or was I unclear in my first post?

Velocity.. Not all brands of lifters have the same internal depth. Usually AROUND .200" but that varies. S&S has no control over the lifter you use. The same for the pushrods.. diffrent threads... The most exact method is to bottom out the lifter and back out 1/2 turn or something similar to that. That should set you about .085" deep...again depending on the lifter and threads. If you want to do it your way, you can.. take the clearance out and go 2 turns in.. That will set you around .060" in and is workable but you can still bleed down .030 to .050 depending on your lifters again. If you dont want to be exact. Just pull the travel limiters out and go 4 turns in from cantact. You will be as close as using a stock pushrod.
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Offline Velocity1

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 01:01:09 PM. »
I called S&S as opinions here have been many, mixed and varied.  Figured it couldn't hurt to ask a S&S tech about his own lifters.  I explained the difficulty finding the "bottom."  I asked if working from the top in at 28 tpi to achieve .050  preload was an acceptable way to get to the half way point and his reply was yes.  He confirmed that generally their HL2T lifters are designed around .100 travel.  .050 in should be no problem.  He went on to explain the limiter merely keeps the lifter from collapsing to the bottom allowing the valve to close completely when the lifter stops on the nose of the cam lobe thus aiding in hot restarts..

Thanks for all the feedback and replys.  I learned quite a bit today.
'02 FX"Custom"ST
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Offline Jeffd

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Re: S&S Travel Limited Lifters Question
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday, April 21, 2010. 05:09:58 PM. »
It was hard to tell when the lifter was actually bottomed out when there was oil in the lifter. I pulled the lifters and removed the oil and then it was easy to tell when the lifter was bottomed out.  I backed off about 1/2 turn and all was good.  Bill bishop told me to do it this way.  He recommended only going 1-2 flats.

Depending on the pushrod, that's only .016 to .018...  Let the thrashing begin!   :up:

That was 15,000 miles ago and my valve train is extremely quite.