Author Topic: EV-13 cam.....opinions?  (Read 11499 times)

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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday, March 23, 2010. 10:30:11 PM. »
".......there is a substantial difference between the EV13 and the EV27.  You don't get "on the cam" with the EV27 til you're going 70mph in top gear.  EV13 comes on substantially sooner and is a much more pleasant cam in all but out and out racing situations.  You're "on the cam" with the EV13 a lot more of the time in the rpm range the average guy spends most of his time in......."

Speaking to what mp was discussing above about the characteristics of the EV27 compared to that of the EV13 here is an interesting TOPICAL DISCUSSION discussing CAM REVERSION:

CLICK HERE TO SEE THE REFERENCE

Taken from "How To Build A Torque Monster" by Bill Rook, this may be a long read but it's fairly interesting and explains what is going on....:

To confuse and complicate compression matters even more, the terms (even by very knowledgeable engine builders) are consistently interchanged and/or misused.

Here are two of the most prevelant examples: Static compression, and dynamic compression is often used when referring to effective compression.

Even experts get this mixed up, so don’t feel so bad if you do, too.

I’ve tried to present my thoughts on compression in a way that will help you understand and make good use of computer-based engine building software programs like Accelerator Pro III.

COMPRESSION, CAMS, AND REVERSION

Now that we have a better understanding of compression, we can deal with cams and intake tract REVERSION.  When a V~twin is modified, it is generally done to increase performance, not decrease it.

The first logical improvements deal with correcting the carburetor’s air/fuel mixture and unrestricting the intake and exhaust track flow abilitites.  After that, you’re looking at increasing the amount of air and fuel you can flow through the motor, and the easiest way to do this is with a cam change.  But which cam should we use?  Choosing the wrong cam for a particular application is very common.  Thanks to engine-building software programs like Accelerator Pro III and Desktop Dyno 2000, this doesn’t have to be as tough as it used to be, but you must still come face to face with what you want your motor to do. 

There’s an old saying that a light bike can handle more cam than a heavy bike.  But if both bikes have the same V~twin how does this apply?  The underlying concept has to do with vehicle weight and REVERSION.

Given the importance of “corrected” compression when designing a motor combination, we know we have to pay close attention to cam timing, especially the point at which the intake valve closes.  As a rule, performance cams’ intake valves will close later than those of stock cams.

Therefore, we will most likely need to increase the mechanical compression to achieve the proper corrected compression ratio.  Mechanical compression can be increased several ways:  milling the heads; using a smaller head gasket; using a domed piston; increasing bore size; or by a combination of these methods.  But there’s more to deal with here than just fixing the corrected compression ratio.  Now we have to worry about intake tract reversion.

SAY WHAT?

In the cam section, remember when I said that to select the right cam, first you have to be honest about the results you want.  You can’t make a motor with stump pulling low-end torque and high-rpm horsepower with a cam change alone!

INTAKE REVERSION DEFINED

Have you ever heard people say “my bike gets on the cam at XXXX rpm” or “my bike really comes on strong at XXXX rpm” or “my cam really hits hard at XXXX rpm and pulls to redline”? Sure you have.  Although they may not know it, what they are describing is intake reversion, or more specifically, the point at which intake reversion stops screwing things up.
LOL It's being brought UP right HERE in this THREAD!!!! as a means of explaining what one is "feeling" seat of the pants!

We now understand that the intake valve does not close at BDC, but somewhere at ABDC.  We also know that you can’t compress anything if the door is still open, and in our case the door is the intake valve.

REVERSION, sometimes referred to as fuel standoff, is caused by the distance the piston travels up the cylinder, and volume of air it displaces while doing so before the intake valve closes.  Engine speed plays a big part here.  If the motor is not turning fast enough when the piston is moving up the cylinder while the intake valve is still open, some of the air/fuel mixture will be forced back out.  It can then travel as far as, or even beyond, the carburetor, REVERSION, therefore, robs lots of power from the low end, and also makes it very hard to adjust the idle and low-speed jetting circuits on your carburetor.

Have you ever had someone complain that their bike’s carb drips gas out of the air cleaner and onto the motor?  It’s either coming from the crankcase breather or it’s a byproduct of intake reversion.  Different cams are designed to do different things in different applications, and at some point every engine will reach a high enough rpm that REVERISION for it’s cam will stop, and it’s power will increase.  This is what people are talking about when they say their bike “gets on the cam at XXXX rpm.”  The later the intake valve closes, the faster the motor must turn to overcome it’s REVERSION point

(As noted earlier, in addition to gas dripping out of the air cleaner, the poor design of the stock breathers on the EVO BIG TWINS can also cause oil to drip from the air cleaner.  Modifying the crankcase breather in the cam chest and using efficiently sealing piston rings can help alleviates some of that problem.)

In conclusion, a heavy bike requires a different cam than a light bike for two main reasons.  Heavy bikes are just that, and they require more low-end torque to accelerate at the same rate as a light bike.  Heavy bikes are  used for touring work, and their RPM stay in lower ranges than lighter sportbikes.  To make matters worse, heavy touring bikes are often geared higher to reduce rpm at cruising speeds.  To choose a cam for a heavy bike, we would look for a low-rpm torque cam.

A cam with an early closing intake valve event will help stop REVERSION at lower rpm and will make lots of power where a heavy bike’s motor lives---below 4,000 rpm.  If you install a cam with a late intake valve closing event or one with too much overlap in a heavy bike’s engine, it will make less power than the stock cam.  You loose all the way around, your power and your money.

REVERSION is the same on a lighter bike, but a lighter bike can deal with the power loss at low rpm since it does not require as much low-end torque to accelerate at the same rate as the heavier bike.  Even though the low-speed reversion still happens, it is not as big a problem on the lighter bike.

REVERSION PROS AND CONS FOR HEAVY AND LIGHT BIKES

A heavy bike needs a cam that closes the intake valve sooner than a light bike.  A heavy bike needs a cam that will let it pull hard off the line and at highway speed. Even when heavily loaded. 

Maximum torque will need to be in the range where this bike lives---2,300 to 3,500 rpm.

However, this type of cam will not be able to supply enough air to feed the motor at high rpm, above 5,000 rpm, so don’t expect much in the way of extreme top-end speed or horsepower. 

A lighter bike can handle a cam that closes the intake valve later, which will produce better cylinder refill at higher rpm.  And more cylinder refill at higher rpm.  And more cylinder refill equals more power! 

A lighter bike can have a torque curve that peaks much higher in the power band and produces more horsepower at higher rpm levels because it supplies more air to the motor at high rpm.

But too much reversion will cost you low-rpm power or low-end torque.  Although this loss may not feel as dramatic on a light bike as it does on a heavy bike, either bike’s engine will need to be revved higher to reach it’s sweet spot when using a cam that closes the intake valve later.  You may want to consider lower gear ratios with this type of cam combination to keep the motor in it’s power band.

Here are some numbers to give you an idea of what to expect from cam-caused REVERSION:

Intake valve closes            REVERSION stops at about
30 degrees ABDC              2,400 rpm
35 degrees ABDC              2,900 rpm
40 degrees ABDC              3,400 rpm
45 degrees ABDC              3,750 rpm
50 degrees ABDC              3,900 rpm


Regards,

"Classic"
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Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday, March 23, 2010. 11:49:55 PM. »
When turning the conversation over to let's say an FXR as MP mentions, here are some additional cam specs:

Cam Maker                   Intake Close Angle       Duration        Lift
EV13                              31                         226-238        .485  .495
EV23                              30                         220-228        .498  .498
EV27                              36                         236-240        .495  .495
V-THUNDER  EVL-3000       34                         224-224        .500  .500
V-THUNDER  EVL-3010       39                         234-234        .500  .500


I am quite interested in the fact that MP is running the EV13 in an FXR, as we all "may" know that an FXR typically is under 600 lbs as compared to the touring models which can come in starting at 750+ lbs that is a significant weight difference and speaks to some extent what Brooks is saying in the above THREAD about cam reversion as compared to the weight of the bike....currently I am personally running the V~Thunder EVL-3010 in my 1999 FXR2 and have been contemplating a change as soon as I finish my 2002 RKC project, a buddy was running a EVL-3020 in his FXR3 and didn't like how it performed in a side by side comparison with my bike's EVL-3010 and so he switched to a Andrews EV27 as he has had several bikes with that particular cam in it and has liked it.   Personally I think it is turning on a bit too late for my taste....and come to find out the EVL-3010 has a intake close angle of 39 so that's too late for me as well....I am a self proclaimed torque junkie.....lol....so I am interested in the fact that MP is running the 31 intake close angle of the EV13 and in terms of his riding style finds that it is much more enjoyable than the EV27.  I am curious what the final gearing of the FXRS that mp owns has?  Perhaps he will chime in again....My fxr2 as well as all of the FXR2's, FXR3's, and FXR4's have 2.925 final gearing significant numbers of fxr models through the years were given 3.15 as well as 3.37 final gearing which as we know offers contributions both postive and negative to how a cam performs within our bikes...

I realize some of this topic is stepping away from rad3766 reflections and needs in a cam for his particular bike but hopefully he can glean some information towards his end.....personally with a road king style bike ie: touring evo I would give serious consideration to the EV23 although I am not entirely certain that there is any major performance difference between an EV23 and an EV13 they are very close when you look at the specs perhaps someone can explain the specific differences that would lead one to choose one over the other....

One other note as for the JM20 that has been mentioned a few times in this THREAD, essentially if someone wants to put the JM20 into their twin cam they can do so through Andrews but it will have to be a special order and if you call their tech person (Gary) he will know it as a Andrews 24 as that is how Andrews refers to it, it is not on any of their literature but if asked for one can have it specifically ground....at a price of some where around $400+ which makes it prohibitive and why people would generally tend to lean towards the Andrews 21 at approximately $245.00 as a very compariable application. 

One other interesting factor to consider is that:

Biker11161 stated once:

"......The easiest thing to understand about camshafts is duration. Duration numbers between 220-230 make the cam "turn on" right off idle, great for two up touring with a trailer. 230-240 #s the cam is still in the lower half portion of the rpm range, good for heavier vehicles/loads for a more streetable riding experience. 240-250 #s are moving the cam's sweet spot to the mid range, good for lighter vehicles and more performance oriented folks. 250-260 #s the cam is definitely in the upper mid range. 260 and above numbers are designed for maximum effort/racing applications. If you read anyones literature (Crane,Andrews,etc) you see as the duration increases the state of tune, modifications, and displacement also increases accordingly. All camshafts realistically have a 2500-3000 rpm range where they work best. A cam that works down low "falls off" way up on top. They aren't made to do all things, all the time. People need to determine where they want the "sweet spot" to be. Idle to 80mph, 50-100, 80-WOT. What works for one person's bike and riding style could be all wrong for another's...."

This may speak to another addiitional piece to consider when looking at some of the cam specs....

I know that Joe Minton recently stated in the Feb issue of American Rider that most of the cam specifications that are presented to us are pretty much meaningless except for cam intake close angle and lift....and he felt that even some of the specifications presented in marketing literature was sometimes wrong....

So all I am suggesting/stating is that a "lighter" bike like an FXR which comes in typically under 600 lbs may fit the description of what Brooks in his comments about cam reversion and how a lighter bike could make up for a later intake close angle because of it's weight as compared to a heavier touring bike where the earlier intake close angle would be more benefical in creating more torque as early on within the RPM range as possible which merely compliments what Joe Minton has been saying for over 28 years and who has done much R&D into this area.

Anyway for $90.00 throwing a EVL-3000 into my bike seems like a worthy R&D seat of the pants feel good story.....

If we could only get our southern comfort friend to quite spewin oil out of his push rod tubes and get his bike out on the highway....we could get some additional R&D reports....lol...yeah Blaine talkin about you!!! lol   :teeth:

Regards,

"Classic"


« Last Edit: Friday, March 26, 2010. 11:20:03 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline 96roadking

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday, March 24, 2010. 06:20:56 PM. »
<I am not entirely certain that there is any major performance difference between an EV23 and an EV13 they are very close when you look at the specs perhaps someone can explain the specific differences that would lead one to choose one over the other....>

It's been a very long time since I was into all this technical cam stuff and I have to admit, I have forgotten more than I remember. Many many moons ago, Andrews use to advertise the EV-13 as having a feature that helped the EVO motor run cooler. I think it had sometime to do with the exhaust valve timing. No other cam that they offered had this that I know of. So if this is true then this might be an advantage over a EV-23.

I also thought that Baggers had lower gearing not higher to help them get moving faster because of the weight factor.

The EV-23 came out years after the EV-13 and 27. I don't know anyone who ever used one and personally I don't know anything about them other than what I've read. It appears they can come on a little sooner than the EV-13 but doesn't offer as much gain in the upper mid rpm ranges. I would guess the difference off the line so to speak would not be something anyone could see of feel. Over all I think having good take off power and the ability to pull hard and be able to pass at highway speeds would make the EV-13 more favorable.

I have read that other riders without Baggers used the EV-13 and really liked the huge Torque gain it had over stock.

I think that all three cams are similar somewhat just offering the same kind of gain in different ranges. The EV-27 is the only one that performs best with a compression bump. Andrews use to advise that info with the cam specs years ago but I think they dropped it.

I always wondered what cam Joe Minton used for that "Pass A Truck" package they sold years ago. I always suspected it was a EV-13 but never could prove it. They kept the cam specs a secret
« Last Edit: Wednesday, March 24, 2010. 06:23:55 PM. by 96roadking »

Offline 96roadking

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #28 on: Thursday, March 25, 2010. 02:05:24 PM. »
 ClassicRider2002, Your Lift specs for the EV-13 and EV-27 are wrong, surely a typo error. Not a big deal but I noticed them when I read your post.

Offline 96roadking

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #29 on: Thursday, March 25, 2010. 04:43:00 PM. »
<As long as we're bringing up Joe Minton, he is on record stating his EV13 is a better cam than the EV23, and he would recommend his JM20 over the TW21 if it was still available.>

mp,  Do you have a Link or something were I can read about this? I'd also like to see were it says that the Pass A Truck Kit used the EV-13 cam.
« Last Edit: Thursday, March 25, 2010. 04:45:58 PM. by 96roadking »

Offline mp

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #30 on: Friday, March 26, 2010. 07:42:38 PM. »
I noticed also the specs were screwed up on the EV13 and 27.  EV13 lift is .485/.495 and EV27 is .495.
The advantage of the 13 over the 23 is more duration without having a late intake close, particularly on the exhaust which has five degrees more on both open and close.  This additional ten degrees exhaust duration keeps oil temps down, as I can attest.  My bike runs exceedingly cool, never getting much over 200 degrees oil tank temp.  It never ran very hot with the stock cam either, since it's not a Twin Cam. :potstir:
All '92 Big Twins ran 3.37 gearing, and I have to say, I've never found my cruising rpm to be unpleasantly high, and don't have any urge to try a six-speed.  My gearing is raised slightly by using an MU90-16 rear tire, but I don't notice any difference, even on the tach.
I used to have a subscription to American Rider magazine and Joe Minton's columns are where I read of his opinions on cams.  It doesn't look like any of these columns are on their website currently.  One reader wrote him, telling him that Andrews had told him the 23 was a better, more modern cam than the 13, and Minton's somewhat miffed reply was that the 23 was not the equal of his EV13.  He also commented on Harley's performance kits for baggers that used a cam with an intake closing of 40 degrees, if I recall correctly, and riders discovering that the stock EPA cam with it's closing angle of 30 degrees was better at doing what most wanted their loaded, two-up bagger to do.  And that's how the Mikuni PAT kit came about.
I thought a long time about what cam I would use in my bike, knowing that a lot of guys exaggerate the quality of their particular build, whether it's the cam or the drag pipes or the Thunder Dyno carb kit they use.  I don't ever race anyone and I wasn't unhappy with the stock cam, despite its truly horrible specs.  It did everything I needed it to.  But I could never go back to it now, having sampled what an EVO liberated from EPA tyranny can do.  Not that I'm in favor of pollution, but......


Offline 96roadking

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #31 on: Saturday, March 27, 2010. 10:19:45 AM. »
Years ago I use to eat, sleep, and poop all this Harley performance stuff. I had this stuff down pat. I did a lot of research on cams and how and why they performed the way they do but I've forgotten a lot of the numbers now. I ended up choosing the EV-13 for my 96 Roadking. I asked Andrews about the EV-23 and they said I should go with it instead of the EV-13. Well I didn't believe them on that call. The only problem is I never installed it. I bought everthing needed to do the job even a few tools. I just never found the time to do the job because of my busy schedule. Heck I never had the time to even ride as much as I'd like to. I'm pretty sure I'll get it done this year, I've been thinking about it a lot and I need to get back on the road again, I miss it. Most of the friends I use to ride with don't ride anymore that's probably one reason or excuse not to ride.
I almost bought the Pass A Truck Kit back when it was new but I figured I could duplicate the kit for less myself. I preferred the CV-40 over the Mikuni which goes against most peoples beliefs. I really wanted more Torque back when I use to ride two up all the time then the wife bought her own bike so I lost interest in pulling the motor apart. From what I see most people pick the wrong cam, their happy with it because it's a big improvement over the stock set up but in reality it's not the correct cam and they are not realizing all the potential the motor is capable of. I remember back in the 60's and 70's guys use to stuff a Tunnel Ram manifold under their hood with a 1150 CFM Holley carb and show it off. That was cool stuff but it wasn't designed for what they were using for. The dam thing was meant for 8000 RPM power and their stock motors never seen anything higher than 6000. It's a matter of choosing the correct parts that are designed to  perform well together in given rpm ranges that the motor will operate mostly. I know one thing for sure and that's if you keep turning 6500 or higher RPM's on a EVO motor, it's not going to last to long. It's a motor with a long stroke and big bore designed to give Torque not RPM's. That's' my story and I'm sticking with it.
« Last Edit: Saturday, March 27, 2010. 10:35:09 AM. by 96roadking »

Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #32 on: Monday, March 29, 2010. 11:06:15 AM. »
This has been and interesting and informative thread. With all the brains on this board let's look at the following scenario, without hijacking the thread. 1993 FXLR with an 85" EVO. Ported SE heads corrected to a true 10.5 to 1 compression ratio. Dyna 2K ignition on single fire with a VT EVL 5015 cam. The bike is a rocketship on the interstate and when on the throttle. Due to the 252 duration the bike sucks on the street. At 85mph in sixth I'm turning about 3200rpm and still have a handful of throttle left.

The kicker is I have a Baker DD6 and find myself mostly around 2500 rpm on the street. Yes, I can gear down and raise the rpm's, but then the fuel mileage sucks. I spoke with Baker this morning about possible gearing changes and they suggested that I swap the cam out. Any ideas from my brother members on how to calm this engine down to be more streetable without sacrificing the performance of the ported SE heads? I'm awaiting a call from VT Tech, but the EVL 5000, 5005 and 5010 have been mentioned, as I prefer the VT line as they are quiet.

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #33 on: Monday, March 29, 2010. 11:55:25 PM. »
Buddy~~

We have had great conversations about your build in the past for sure....especially when we discussed the merits of gearing....and for the most part you know my feelings....I have always felt you had gone too far with that build....but that's just my opinion.....but you asked for some input....the only catch is you asked for some input from some folks that know what the heck they are talking about.....lol and given that my "shade tree"  looks more like Charlie Brown's Christmas Tree....I would say I better keep my opinions brief....lol....

So.....I have always felt your bakers 6 speed was too much....gearing for that particular bike as well.....

Due to the 252 duration the bike sucks on the street. At 85mph in sixth I'm turning about 3200rpm and still have a handful of throttle left.

The kicker is I have a Baker DD6 and find myself mostly around 2500 rpm on the street. Yes, I can gear down and raise the rpm's, but then the fuel mileage sucks. I spoke with Baker this morning about possible gearing changes and they suggested that I swap the cam out. Any ideas from my brother members on how to calm this engine down to be more streetable without sacrificing the performance of the ported SE heads?

You have a lot going on with this build, modification of your gearing combined with a certain compression level combined with the cam you are running.......

Obviously the baker 6 speed will stay as it is totally expensive.....over $2,000 expensive....the pistons are staying as well....since you like that kind of compression.....the heads are staying since you have purchased screamin eagle heads so the only thing left is playing with your cams.....

I forgot what hg you are using.....but I went and looked at the characteristics of the cams you are talking about the 5015 have a .585" lift with 252 duration, and a 46 degree intake close angle.....that goes against everything that I like....and sets you up for the results you are experiencing.....I would spend the $105.00 with shipping and have them send you out a EVL 5000 as it brings down your lift to .562" your duration to 230 and your intake close angle to 33....for the $140.00 inclusive of all the parts....it would be worth the seat of the pants trial to me......I don't like 10.5 compression personally....but because I don't like it doesn't mean a whole hill of beans....lol.....but with the 5000 what will happen is that cam is going to come on sooner in the torque curve....as you will be decreasing your intake close angle from 46-33 some 13 degrees.....

Here is what I know....you have a bike that weighs in under 590 lbs, one of HD's lightest big twins, you are sporting a 6 speed just to bring your revolutions down @ highway speed and yet you are finding out like most of us that our riding is done between 2500 rpms to 4500 rpms....and with the 6th speed you have to be movin on the highway to even get into 6th gear.....and by then you have messed with your rpms enough to loose the power band of your cam....

I like torque.....so that's my personal bias and I don't like 10.5:1 compression, and with my FXR2 I am already sporting 2.925 final gearing which is like a 6th gear actually....the only time I use 5th gear is on the interstate.....so I like a user friendly bike when in town and in the mountains where one's speed is limited a great deal of time below 50 mph.

I am not skilled enough to say how the 5000 will perform for sure...but I have an idea that your increased compression will still benefit from the .562 lift and the shorter duration will awaken the cam in the lower rpms and combined with the lower intake close angle it certainly should bring it on sooner.....what you will be doing effectively is moving the power band to a bit more user friendly location.

It seems like it would be worth it to do the $150.00 R&D and the 6 hours labor to break it down and put it back together....I for one would be extremely interested to read about your results....it would also be interesting to see a dyno before and after such a modification.

SO there you have it.....some input....LOL

Regards,

"Classic"

Where is Mikey.....about now he should be screamin something about a WOODS CAM!!!!  yeeeeuuuu whooooooooo MIKEY where are you..... :gob:   :hyst:







 
 

« Last Edit: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 12:01:05 AM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 05:05:54 AM. »
Tim
Thanks chming in as always and for the input. The Baker did achieve what I was looking to accomplish with the gearing. 1st through 5th is the same as stock. The overdrive 6th is accomplished in the primary by going to a 28T engine sprocket with a 2 pin longer chain (that Baker supplies) along with my stock 37T clutch basket. Really nice on a long run on the Interstate. I spoke with Baker yesterday and there was no way to really change the gearing by changing the engine sprocket. They suggested the cam change as the way to go. I'm still 32 on the trans pulley and to 70T on the rear wheel.

The 5015 is pretty close to a Woods 9, I also e-mailed John T at Miacycles (Who recommends the the Woods 6 for milder builds), who suggested I believe a Leineweber E-7. I'll be talking with Mike at V-Thunder later today. I also spoke with Andy at Rev Performance yesterday. We figured that the CCP with the 5000 or 5005 would be around 190, but that I'd like either one of those cams. We'll see what VT has to say later on today.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 11:46:58 AM. by Buddy WMC »

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 06:56:08 AM. »
Buddy~

Well it sounds like you have called in the troops (professionals) which is good....the only thing I have found with the professionals they will spend your money and take you any direction you want to go.....@ least that's my experience.

I am curious how your bike is responding on hot florida days have you had any detonation with that build thus far?

I realize that with more compression one can afford to move their intake close angle later.....buttttttt at a 46 degree intake close angle your cam isn't getting over the reversion process until around 3500-3700 rpms which may be attrributing to why you feel the bike is a rocket ship at speed (85 mph @3200 rpms +) when you are getting on the throttle as you are just getting into the "defined" sweet spot of the cam....which would also explain why your bike feels so "lazy" at 2500 rpms......

I did a similar build with a high lift cam on a 2003 dyna low rider back in 2003, I had a .570 lift and 10.25 compression with domed top pistons....the bike was a rocket ship just as you described at speed and great torque below but was a detotnating machine under load going up the mountain combined with warmer days.....warmer days in the mountains never really hit over 85 degrees....so I am curious what your build is doing on hot summer sea level days in FL. 

I look forward to hearing more about this.

Regards,

"Classic"

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LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 12:01:52 PM. »
Tim,
No detonation or pinging at all on 93 octane Shell as set up now. VT just called and wants to go with the 5010, so I ordered the cam without the gear. I also e-mailed my head porter (wfolarry), who agreed with that choice or the 5005. His advice was to make one change at a time that I think is warranted. VT's opinion was that the 5005 would not take full advantage of the headwork. VT also advised that the 5010 will come in 500 rpm sooner, so it sounds like maybe a winner although the CCP will be around 200 compared to 165.

It'll take me about 3 hours to swap the cams out, then we'll hit the dyno, rejet and recurve the ignition if need be. With the 5015, best we got was 98.6/95.3 with all nine pulls done in 4th to 100mph. Problem is they were all done in the spring dry air last year. By the time I make the swap, it may be more humid. The dry/humid carb adjustment was just a slight tweak on the S&S slow speed, so no problem there. Like you stated, for $100.00 and my time, it's worth a try. Good thing is I had a spare set of exhausts ceramic coated, so they won't blue!! After all, I do have an image to keep after whipping that new SE 110 Fat Bob :teeth:
« Last Edit: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 12:39:55 PM. by Buddy WMC »

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 03:09:28 PM. »
No detonation or pinging at all on 93 octane Shell as set up now. VT just called and wants to go with the 5010, so I ordered the cam without the gear. I also e-mailed my head porter (wfolarry), who agreed with that choice or the 5005. His advice was to make one change at a time that I think is warranted. VT's opinion was that the 5005 would not take full advantage of the headwork.

Hmmmm we certainly don't have 93 octane out here....lol....

I can see not coming all the way over to the "dark" side lol with an intake close angle of 34 degrees with the EVL 5000 but meeting half way to the 5005 would have been the least you could do....LOL   

Seriously though....when I look at the EVL 5005 it has an intake close angle of 38 which would put you around 2900-3100 rpms where the cam would get into it's "sweet" spot, this may be a simple way of looking at it.....but in the end you know what you have now and it's not exactly "streetable" in terms of your desires....the lift for the EVL 5005 is also at .569" and I would imagine if you did the numbers for your CCP it would bring them down just a bit as well....

Just a thought but it doesn't seem like you would be making a big enough jump to see any real "seat of the pants' difference where as if you went to the EVL 5005 it would be enough for you to feel the modification....

Regards

'"Classic"

« Last Edit: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 06:35:39 PM. by ClassicRider2002 »
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Offline harleytoprock

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday, March 30, 2010. 03:27:11 PM. »
Buddy, If you want to try a 5005, I have  one reasonably priced in the swap section.

Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #39 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010. 01:55:53 AM. »
Buddy, If you want to try a 5005, I have  one reasonably priced in the swap section.

HTP,
SOLD, You have mail.

Tim,
Now I'll have both the 5005 and 5010, something to play with over the summer (lol).
« Last Edit: Wednesday, March 31, 2010. 02:28:43 AM. by Buddy WMC »

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #40 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010. 07:41:10 AM. »
-

Now I'll have both the 5005 and 5010, something to play with over the summer (lol).

Buddy~

yeewwwwddd dahhhhh mannnnnnn

Another suggestion put in the 5005 first....as it will be the most extreme to the "light" lol....to see how you like it.....and if you do, your R&D is over....and if you feel it's not quite right then you can go back in the direction of the "darker" side....lol.  Theeeeeen if you felt that the 5005 was very close to your needs you could theoretically call V~Thunder and let them know you have a brand new 5010 that you haven't used and would they be willing to allow you to exchange for a 5000 minus shipping costs providing you a pathway to then try even going further to the "light" lol....or you could decide that no one in their right mind would build a engine around the 5000 characteristics and not even attempt the R&D and simply resell the 5010 on your own.

I am still very curious how the 5000 would feel "seat of the pants"....given your particular build and how it would specifically react to the head set up you have.....that baby would be a TORQUE MONSTER.....the only issue would be would it have some detonation issues since you would be using a shorter duration cam and a smaller degree closing angle such as 33 would provide vs the 38 of the 5005. 

You currently are feeling the "laziness" of the 5020 cam because of the 46 degree intake close angle at the 2500 rpm - 3600 rpm level right now based upon your reflections above....and as you said at above 85 mph it begins to wake up....but as I recall you were interested in building a motor that would allow you to go down the highway at 90 mph with the people you ride with.  So you built it.....but as we all eventually discover that a lot of our riding is done between 2700 rpms -3500 rpms when riding for extended periods....in fact if our motors were designed with a cam that could do it....there wouldn't be any reason to not ride them around 2400 rpms on some country roads as well.....which of course does what......gives you better fuel mileage.... with a 30 degree intake close angle and how it moves the torque curve as far to the left as possible with my 02RKC I am able to ride in the mountains with the engine comfortable at 2400 rpms and not be "lugging" the engine.....which speaks to the characteristics of the timing as defined by the cam....I am not suggesting that you go to anything with your particular build that is at 30 degrees intake close angle....but I am curious how moving from 46 to 38 will feel and I am curious still how 33 might feel "seat of the pants".

Regards,

"Classic"
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Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #41 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010. 12:42:22 PM. »
Well Tim.
I asked Evo1 how he liked the 5005 earlier in the thread and he didn't respond. That being said, I sent an e-mail to HTP asking him why he pulled the 5005. Thought maybe his input would give me a better insight on which one to try first. The 5010 is on the way from VT and my check is on the way to HTP, so we'll go from there. One way or another, betcha a six pack that I'll get her where I want.

BTW, 190 CCP with the 5005 and 200 with the 5010. Currently at 165.

Offline Evo1

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday, March 31, 2010. 08:48:04 PM. »
Buddy, sorry for the non response. I liked the 5005 much better than the 27 for my needs. More low end torque and quieter. I don't feel that I have it dialed in just right yet. The Crane 300-2B, I feel gave even more low end torque. But it's been awhile since I had that in the bike. I've got the SE heads and used the SE HGs that I believe are .055 so the CR isn't what it should be. The engine is tore down right now and I'll be using thinner HGs with a possible head shave to get the CR up.

Hope this helps,
Evo1

Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #43 on: Thursday, April 01, 2010. 06:32:16 AM. »
Buddy, sorry for the non response. I liked the 5005 much better than the 27 for my needs. More low end torque and quieter. I don't feel that I have it dialed in just right yet. The Crane 300-2B, I feel gave even more low end torque. But it's been awhile since I had that in the bike. I've got the SE heads and used the SE HGs that I believe are .055 so the CR isn't what it should be. The engine is tore down right now and I'll be using thinner HGs with a possible head shave to get the CR up.

Hope this helps,

Evo1,
It does and thanks as your input also confirms HTP's experience with his 5005. He  shared some information via e-mail and on his advice along with Tim's, I'll try the 5005 cam first. Sounds like it may be a winner and if I need a bit more I'll have the 5010. A bit of advice if I may having ported SE heads on mine. With the 9.5 to 1 CP pistons and an .040 Cometic head gasket I'm at a true 10.5 to 1. After the porting was done and the chambers were worked, we had to deck the heads .010 to get them back down to 72CC's to make that happen. If I had to do this again I'd probably shoot for a bit lower compression somewhere between 9.5 to 10.0 max. I'll have to do some calculations to see what the thicker head gasket would do to lower mine a bit. I'll live with what I have for now until I have to pull the heads. With yours being down, or if you can feed me some more info on your current piston CR maybe I can help calculate what you have now. I'd also take your heads to a machine shop and have the cc's checked before doing anything else. Then we'll know if they have to be decked or not.
Buddy....
« Last Edit: Thursday, April 01, 2010. 06:41:29 AM. by Buddy WMC »

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday, April 28, 2010. 08:06:27 AM. »
Buddy....

Any updates to offer us?

Regards,

"Classic"
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Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #45 on: Thursday, April 29, 2010. 07:34:22 AM. »
Not Yet Tim,
Still waiting and still waiting for a set of exhausts to get done with ceramic coating. Going to play with the carb a bit over the weekend. Went on a short trip and averaged 34mpg @55mph or so. I know she's running fat, but I have to drill the air bleed out in the S&S before leaning out the intermediate jet. Also getting alot of feedback that the 5005 may be detonation prone at my CR, so thinking about trying to 5010 first. If that doesn't work, then I'll just stick a smaller VT or Woods 6 in her and tune from there.

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #46 on: Thursday, April 29, 2010. 08:13:38 AM. »
Not Yet Tim,
Still waiting and still waiting for a set of exhausts to get done with ceramic coating. Going to play with the carb a bit over the weekend. Went on a short trip and averaged 34mpg @55mph or so. I know she's running fat, but I have to drill the air bleed out in the S&S before leaning out the intermediate jet. Also getting alot of feedback that the 5005 may be detonation prone at my CR, so thinking about trying to 5010 first. If that doesn't work, then I'll just stick a smaller VT or Woods 6 in her and tune from there
.

Buddy~

Keep us posted.

Regards,

"Classic"
MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #47 on: Friday, April 30, 2010. 09:17:52 AM. »
You betcha,
My Bro (Indy Mechanic and Dyno Tuner), who helped with this build is coming down from SC the middle of May for a visit. We'll get it all sorted out then if I ever get my exhausts back by then. All of the parts are waiting, we just want to go one step at a time.

Don't misunderstand as I've stated before, the bike runs like a raped ape. We just have to find a compromise around 1800-2500 without raising the CCR too much and we are good to go. VT says that the 5010 will do the trick, so we'll see. If not I'll look into a 3010 or 3020 and sacrifice a bit of performance. BTW, he's bringing a degree wheel, so we can play with the cam timing a bit.

Offline ClassicRider2002

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #48 on: Thursday, May 13, 2010. 08:22:44 AM. »
Running mine ported by wfolarry @ 10.5 to 1 with a .040 Cometic head gasket. The heads had to be decked .010 to get them back down to 72cc's after the chambers were done. 9.5 CP pistons were installed, so the chamber volume on the SE heads raises the CR 1 point. I have no pinging or detonation problems on 93 octane Shell with the Dyna 2K ignition. I'm getting away with some of this due to the overlap on the VT EVL5015.

As you know there is a cam swap gonna happen pretty soon to try and calm this engine down a bit. We'll see what happens then
.


Buddy~

Bring that bike right back to EARTH BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :hyst:

I am still waitin.....to hear anything....lol.....talk to US!!!!!

Regards,

"Classic"
MIGHTY MOUSE CAM
LOW END TORQUE JUNKIE 2

Offline Buddy WMC

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Re: EV-13 cam.....opinions?
« Reply #49 on: Friday, May 14, 2010. 06:10:17 AM. »
Tim,
Still waiting on the ceramic coating to be finished on the exhausts that was promised over two weeks ago. They have had the exhausts since right after bike week. In the meantime, my Bro and help from SC got caught up with work helping out with the severe flooding problem in Tennesee, so his visit was canceled.
On top of that, our bathroom remodeling project starts this Monday. Looks like maybe once the bathroom is completed in a couple of weeks the exhausts should be ready and we'll get at it.

I did fiddle with the carb a bit and did the airbleed mod that Deathwish recommended. Seemed to have helped as he advised, I was able to drop the intermediate down from a 32 to a 31 and readjust the low speed without any problems. Still seems to be a bit fat down low though. Hopefully another test ride today with a 29.5 using the testing method that Deathwish suggested and we'll go from there.

I again thank Deathwish, as his tips seem to be working.