Author Topic: Sifton Hydro lifter problem  (Read 3343 times)

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Offline hotrodshovel

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Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« on: Friday, October 23, 2009. 03:54:34 PM. »
Well I finally installed my L3s cam I / we have been talking about for a while. It was my first cam replacement and it went surprisingly smooth. I have to say that the advice I got from you guys about spending the money on the right tools was the best thing I could have done. Man what a difference. I used all Jims, the cam cover / seal installer tool, cam bearing puller and the cam bearing press. Man it was a pleasure to do the job.

I had to mess around with some spacers to get the proper end play but ended up using a .065  with the cam washer. I found out why I had so much noise in the gear case, I thought it was lifters but it was excessive end play in the cam. 3x the max!! But no damage at all though. So I put on a new chrome cover to finish it off. It was a good day until I went to install my new Sifton Hydro kit. Wondering when I would get to it, right?....

I installed the front block, roller/tappet assembly and pushrods. Front went fine. One of the rollers for the rear was too tight and would not allow the lifter to fit in. I tried all combinations and all were good except this one particular roller. It just wouldn't let any in. I know that there is a tight fit but they should be easily removed, slide in and out smoothly. I got one tappet to seat in it but it was just too tight and required way too much preassure to pull it out. I can't afford to have a lifter freeze up.

I called Zoom, where I got it but they were closed so I'm hung up. Has anyone come across this? Can the lifter be emory'd down until if fits or should I just wait for a swap. That could take a week and a half. I want to feel this L3s. I want to ride this thing.

I have this Baker 6 in a 4 that I will install while I'm waiting for a new part unless there is something I could do to fix it.

So I am ready to hear any suggestions you guys may have.  Thanks in advance.
John

Online Mule

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #1 on: Friday, October 23, 2009. 06:54:51 PM. »
 Take it to an automotive machine shop and have the bore honed to fit, I believe the fit should be one and one half thousands clearance. Mule...
Edited by Coyote :(

Offline otis

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #2 on: Friday, October 23, 2009. 10:42:24 PM. »
I agree with Mule.  The lifter diameter to bore relationship is critical.  If they are "sticking" at all, do not use them.

These parts move up and down ALOT.  Make sure they mate to each other well......very well

Good Luck,
Pat

Offline Tobias

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #3 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 06:14:14 AM. »
They sell rollers in standard and over-sized diameters.
I wonder if the ones you have were mispackaged and oversized rollers were put in a standard size box.

Before you get the tappet block machined take the block and roller back to the shop and see if they have another set that fits properly.  If not then go ahead with getting the tappet blocks machined.

Offline flhswingarm

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #4 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 08:14:32 AM. »
I just put new siftons hydroolics,cam,blocks in my flh........the rollers fit tightly and the lifters wouldn't collapse easily till I put some light oil on everything.......it took me two tries to get the feel for adjusting the new setup. The new hydraulics are much quieter than the old solids  :up:

Hope this is encourageing

Offline 96flhpi

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 09:59:50 AM. »
They sell rollers in standard and over-sized diameters.
I wonder if the ones you have were mispackaged and oversized rollers were put in a standard size box
Happened to me once. 

I'd see if you can buy another individual roller now and get a refund for the return when they get it.  Newburgh to NYC is just like overnight for the UPS people, you'd have it Tues.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #6 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 10:52:28 AM. »
Maybe I'm not awake yet but I'm not completely understanding. First, are you re-installing your old lifter blocks or installing new ones (sifton?). Second, you say that one of the rollers wouldn't fit. Are you actually meaning the roller itself or are you saying that  the lifter body is a tight fit in the block. It sounds like your installing new blocks as well as lifters. If that's the case and everything fits just fine except that no lifters will fit properly into the one hole then I'd think that the problem is the lifter block bore is not properly honed to size. If all the lifters fit just fine everywhere except that one lifter won't fit in anything then you probably have a misboxed oversize lifter body. Sifton used to be pretty good stuff. They got bought out a while back and I think that the only original thing remaining is the name.

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #7 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 02:54:01 PM. »
Thanks for all the replies. gryphon, sorry if I'm not too clear. I'm installing all new stuff from Sifton. blocks, lifters, rollers, pushrods, etc. It came in a kit. This kit will replace my old solid stuff.  One of the rollers is so tight that the tappet will not fit into it. The remaining three are fine.

I called Zoom and they are very cool about this. Nancy, it think, is handling this as a "missing part" and just shipping me out a new roller. Yep, Tobias, that's what we are expecting. Tuesday.

flhswingarm, I adjusted them by just fingering the rod into the tappet (while its lowered) and then giving it 3 turns to tighten, then lock ( dry, no oil yet.!). How did you do yours?

I can't wait to feel these especially with the new l3s cam.

Thanks again to all. Much appreciated.
John

Offline flhswingarm

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #8 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 04:20:26 PM. »
Rudy.......what worked for me was to finger em down till snug then backing them off 7 flats.......n lock em good.... then use a flat scrwdriver and see if you have a little down travel.......this is w/o oil in the lifters cept a lite film to make things move easier...... I have always run solids and I am amazed at how quiet the hydros are.....I have done some highway to see iffn they hold up....so far so good
hope this helps

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #9 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 04:56:34 PM. »
When you say "finger down until snug" ,do you mean just snug in the tappet pocket without compressing the spring or snug by taking up spring travel and then backing off?

Cause you can really get some turns with fingers I noticed.  I know once these things get some oil in them they are like solid so I am very cautious not to over extent the pushrods.

I'm real glad you are happy cause that means I will be too! Mine were so damned noisy, wow...I found really excessive end play in the old cam so I think it was traveling sideways alot.

We'll see. I have to wait until the UPS guy brings me my new roller so Tuesday evening or Wednesday morning I'll be writing in my results (hopefully good ones).

Thanks to all, again.

John

Offline flhswingarm

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #10 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 05:43:29 PM. »
Rudy.......I mean snug em down till springs collapsed........ finger tight..........then back off 7 flats......lock em down....to make sure you got room to expand use a flat screwdriver and push down on lifter (should bob up n down bout 1/8 inch.........that being said, you got some of the greatest shovel minds in the known universe in HTT...I'm an ol shadetree but that worked for me ( amazing what a few very expensive mistakes will teach you) this shovel will outlive me

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #11 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 08:50:58 PM. »
Oh brother, those very words have come out of my mouth, as you so righteously put it. I have learned so much from these guys here that I have become quite a competent Shovelhead mechanic. This place is a great resource, that's why I contributed.

What I don't know, I learn here.

Don't short change yourself either brother. You are teaching me, with a few others, about these hydros, something I knew very little about. After today, however, I am squared away with one more thing.
John

Offline otis

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #12 on: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 11:03:32 PM. »
Here's my understanding of hydro adjustment......

First think of the system and how it works.  There is one cylinder moving inside another, with fluid under the inside to prevent radical downward movement.  The inside cylinder is locked inside the outer and has a total movement of "X" from top to bottom.  Let's say for this discussion it's 0.150".

I ran Jim's lifters so I will use their numbers.  I had 0.150" total movement.  I can adjust from either the top or bottom of total movement.   If adjusting from the top (pushrod free spinning on lifter cup with no inside cylinder movement) - need to adjust down 0.100".  If choose to bottom out the inside cyclinder first - spin pushrod all the way down till it stops and back off 0.050".  Either method puts you in the same spot.

You can check your overall movement by counting the turns from when the pushrod first touches the lifter to when it stops.  Adjust so the cylinder is down around 2/3 or total movement.

Do NOT spin the engine after each adjustment until the pushrod spins freely - or you may bend something.  

Hope this helps....

Good luck,
Pat

« Last Edit: Saturday, October 24, 2009. 11:08:21 PM. by otis »

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #13 on: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 01:18:18 AM. »
Thanks, man. That makes alot of sense. That's a very scientific method. It makes the adjustment the exact same for each valve. Takes all the guess work out. Much appreciated. One question, I have heard that when making hydro adjustments it is necessary to "remove" the oil from each lifter first. Is that your understanding also?
John

Offline otis

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #14 on: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 07:09:26 AM. »
I prefer not to take apart and remove the oil from the lifter.  I take up the slack and then adjust down 0.100".  Wait for the oil to bleed off (so pushrod spins freely) and then move to the next one.

This is what happens.  When adjusting from the top and lifter is oiled, you're actually lifting the valve with the hydraulic pressure.  Once adjusted, the pushrod will be extremely tight and you will not be able to spin with your fingers.  You need to wait until valve bleeds off so the valve is resting on the seat again  - (takes 1-20 minutes depending of lifter tolerance) IMPORTANT -wait for the lifter to bleed down before going to the next one; the pushrod must spin freely.

Check out Jims instructions below...



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« Last Edit: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 07:12:11 AM. by otis »

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #15 on: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 07:53:36 AM. »
Outstanding, thanks very much. Sifton sent nothing with the kit (?)  This is helpful.

Now if I can only find out how many threads per inch the Sifton rods have.....
« Last Edit: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 07:58:03 AM. by Rudy »
John

Offline otis

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #16 on: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 08:39:30 AM. »
Rudy -

Just count them...Put a piece of tape 1" apart and count the number of threads in between.

Or.... buy a thread gauge.

Even better......Call Sifton and ask for their instruction sheet.  You should follow there set range.

Good luck,
Pat
« Last Edit: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 08:41:34 AM. by otis »

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #17 on: Sunday, October 25, 2009. 08:49:52 AM. »
Yeah I just emailed them and asked for the tech info for the set. Thanks, Pat
John

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #18 on: Monday, October 26, 2009. 11:32:36 AM. »
If anyone is interested, I counted the threads on the Sifton steel lifter at 30 tpi. It may differ on the alloy rods.
John

Offline nomadbkr

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #19 on: Monday, October 26, 2009. 11:50:52 PM. »
.. uhhh ..
.. the L3s is designed for solids ..
.. I just checked to be sure and the L3s is still listed for solid lifters ..
.. there is a notation on the bottom of the page that sez "Jim's or Velva Touch lifters are ok" ..
.. but you might wanna call to check on running Sifton hyd's with that grind ..

.. I can't paste it in here, but here's the link for the PDF file of Leinweber's shovelhead cam spec's ..

http://www.leinewebercams.com/shvlpancatalogue.pdf

.. good luck ..
nomad

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday, October 27, 2009. 06:02:15 AM. »

I spoke with Jim Leineweber prior to buying the cam and we spoke about several issues, hydros being one, and he told me they were OK. I'll call again jut to make sure, but I appreciate your input.
John

Online 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday, October 27, 2009. 07:21:02 AM. »

 FWIW,
 Running a "solid" cam in my 93 with a net .585 lift on Jims lifters for 5 seasons now, so far so good.
The attendance at your funeral will be largely dependent on the weather.

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Sifton Hydro lifter problem
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday, October 27, 2009. 09:18:51 AM. »
Just to set the record straight, I had a conversation with Jim Leineweber again today regarding the l3s being made for solids, which it technically is, however according to JL 80% of the l3s cams sold go into engines with hydraulic lifters. The only thing that needs to be watched, according to JL, is that the proper lubrication be used. He recommend that a HD grade 20-50 is good for NY climate where 60wt and maybe more in places like Arizona. He told me some guys out there are telling him they use as high as 70 wt in the dead of summer where it gets to 115. If it is set up correctly, the hydro units will work as well (only quieter) as solids with this cam. That's all from Jim Leineweber, a great guy by the way.

Oh yeah, he told me Ted of Ted's V Twin bought the Sifton name so there is no way of knowing where these Sifton lifters are being made. Frankly had I known that, I would have bought Jims. But whatever...next time...its only money.
John