Author Topic: Roaring in the Primary???  (Read 2867 times)

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Offline DblackmanC

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Roaring in the Primary???
« on: Thursday, May 14, 2009. 07:47:52 AM. »
similar to "Roberts post" but not to hijack it...

Dyna '06, 95", 46,000 miles. This week I've heard a noise new to me. (I think) when I come to a stop and put trans. in neutral as soon as I let out the clutch lever I'm getting a roaring sound from the primary area. Here again "No roar until I let out the clutch lever". What does this tell the Pros on here?

Note of importance....When I purchased this bike new, I (as all Dyna buyers) signed a "Notice of amendment to Owner's Manual" that states Harley has preliminarily determined that the inner primary bearing will require replacement at 15K miles and at 15K intervals thereafter and will be done by dealer at no cost to owner.

Now they have withdrawn that and say no they don't need to be changed. WTF??
If this is my problem?? Sounds like I should be able to make them replace under warranty??
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline les

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, May 14, 2009. 10:40:59 AM. »
Others with more experience could probably do the "Click and Clack" diagnosis by the should you describe.  But I suggest doing a very inexpensive first look...will only cost a quart of primary oil.  I'd remove the outer primary cover and have a look.  You can reuse your primary gasket in most cases.

Offline jaw65

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #2 on: Thursday, May 14, 2009. 07:17:36 PM. »
Hi Mate
Dont know if this helps but i had the same noise, I fixed it by changiing the oil, I first filled to the level as per the manual still made the noise then i filled it only with 1 qut 945mils and noise went done 10000klms and 2 primary oil changes since then and no noise( Used Mobile 1 vtwin oil).
Ride hard but stay the right way up.

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #3 on: Friday, May 15, 2009. 06:54:19 AM. »
Don't think it would be oil or oil level because I'm using the same oil and the same amount (1 Qt) plus it didn't happen at or after an oil change. What bearing is spinning when you let your clutch out in neutral that is not spinning when sitting and holding your clutch lever in? I would think that is the source but not sure what bearing that would be or how hard it would be for me to change?? Please yell if you know...
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline les

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #4 on: Friday, May 15, 2009. 10:25:35 AM. »
Don't think it would be oil or oil level because I'm using the same oil and the same amount (1 Qt) plus it didn't happen at or after an oil change. What bearing is spinning when you let your clutch out in neutral that is not spinning when sitting and holding your clutch lever in? I would think that is the source but not sure what bearing that would be or how hard it would be for me to change?? Please yell if you know...
Dan


There are several bearings involved.  The engine sprocket shaft bearing, the clutch hub bearing, primary mainshaft bearing, and the tranny main bearing.  The reason I suggested to open the primary (and spend a quart) is maybe it's your chain tensioner.  The bearings I mentioned are somewhat involved to change.  But if you took a visual that might help us to further scope down what it might be...by eliminating what it's not.

I don't think it's worn out clutch plates, but who knows?  The clutch stack is easy to take off and inspect when the primary cover is off.  Just those six bolts and carefully pull off the stack in order.  There are two inner "rings" that are last and hard to pick out.  Don't take those out if they stay in the basket.

Anyway, keep feeding us information and we'll try to help get it figured out.

Offline RatchetAtHawgShop

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, May 16, 2009. 11:42:38 AM. »
Sure sounds like inner primary bearing.

Offline Shadowdog

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #6 on: Saturday, May 16, 2009. 12:43:00 PM. »
Hi D BlackmanC,

Here is the bad news but there is some hope of getting it done on HD's dime, forget the cdomments about Biggs, there is a completely new crew there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixs View Post
Howdy Folks,

The story continues: I got the bike back after 3 days short of two months in the shop. The bottom line, after a couple of screw ups with the parts ordered, the transmission case, main shaft, and all the bearings in the tranny were replaced including the trap door to get the pins in. Also replace: the inner primary case and bearing as well as the Clutch hub bearing and the shift shaft and shift lever (last guy to work on it didn't tighten up the shift pinch bolt correctly and stripped the spline on the shaft and the shift lever, he is history). Minor whine in the tranny, and someone dropped something on the fender putting a chip in the paint (NBD, I'll fix it).

The dealer, went way out of his way to get this done on Harley's dime, the bike was out of warranty the only charge was $7.50 for a derby gasket because it was not stock.

When all the correct parts were in it took only 2 days to get the bike back, the screw ups were from the factory and not the dealer except a minor delay due to an error in an order. Shit happens and that is why they put erasers on pencils.

We're talking about $850.00 worth of parts and the labor to do it on Harley, so, they did the right thing and fixed it. Thank you Harley Davidson and an especially big thanks to Kirby and his staff at Bigg's Harley Davidson in San Marcos CA. BTW, they did offer to set me up with a loaner bike while mine was in the shop, I declined, I wanted to ride my 1200S Sportster for a while.

So, if I jump square in your shit for "dealer" comments or MOCO negativity, you'll know why.

Best to all,

Pixs

If you want to read more here is the URL to the original post: http://www.westcoastbikers.com/forums/f43/06-dyna-inner-primary-bearing-5889/ good luck

Best wishes,

Shadowdog (Pixs)

Best to all,

Shadowdog  Smoke um till the wheels fall off!

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #7 on: Saturday, May 16, 2009. 08:02:50 PM. »
Quote
Pixs

If you want to read more here is the URL to the original post: http://www.westcoastbikers.com/forums/f43/06-dyna-inner-primary-bearing-5889/ good luck

Best wishes,


This place an April fools joke?? Max
Aka Mousinator, Another Wasted Minute With Max,
No Collar to the Bone

Offline Shadowdog

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #8 on: Sunday, May 17, 2009. 09:15:07 AM. »
Quote
Pixs

If you want to read more here is the URL to the original post: http://www.westcoastbikers.com/forums/f43/06-dyna-inner-primary-bearing-5889/ good luck

Best wishes,


This place an April fools joke?? Max


Hi Bruce,

No joke, just a small site with only a few people, most frequent this board.

Best,

Shadowdog
Best to all,

Shadowdog  Smoke um till the wheels fall off!

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #9 on: Friday, May 22, 2009. 07:27:00 PM. »
I'm backkkk......Ok, I made the tool and I have everything in the primary on my bench. The chain adjuster is fine, very little wear. The clutch shell spins smooth and free BUT the clutch hub is a different story. spinning it feels like you're spinning the motor on a small weed eater. Like it has compression....so I have a very bad bearing..I'm guessing at this point (and hoping) inner primary bearing. If not I guess Trans.  :cry: I'm going to pull battery and started and then inner primary. then I'll get back with my finding. Any suggestions at this time??
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #10 on: Friday, May 22, 2009. 09:12:55 PM. »
Ok...have found bad inner primary bearing. The inner race has two places where the harden surface has come off and many of the rollers are pitted up. I'll get pic am Saturday. Also found my shifter lever seal starting to leak from the trans. Can this be repaired from the outside? Shifter lever seems to have a fair amount of up and down movement in the trans. Can this bushing be changed without going into the trans.??
Another question...The main Trans. shaft turned pretty hard and the bad bearing was very pronouned. As I loosened the inner primary bolts I felt and heard movement and then the main trans shaft turned much easier and the bad bearing was less pronouned....like it was in a little bind!! Any ideas on that?? Maybe that caused the bearing to go out?? All help appreciated.
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline les

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #11 on: Friday, May 22, 2009. 09:45:03 PM. »
The shifter shaft sleeve cannot be change from the outside...need to remove guts of tranny.  The shifter shaft seal can be changed from the outside.  Some drill two small holes, insert a couple of screws, and pull it out.  I only drill one hole and use a small wood screw and screw it in until it pushes the seal out.  It's easier for me to do it that way.

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #12 on: Friday, May 22, 2009. 10:13:08 PM. »
Thanks Les, I'll do that for now. No oil has made it to the floor yet, so it could have been too bad.

How about the inner race on the main shaft for the inner primary bearing. Is there a good trick to get it off (heat?) and also putting the new one on? No Harley tools here so I may have to take to dealer for pressing??

How about the inner bearing and clutch hub bearing and seals...use Harley or is there anything better out there?
Thanks for the help,
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline FSG

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #13 on: Friday, May 22, 2009. 10:31:43 PM. »
Some light reading 4 U

Speed shifter shaft replacement  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9861.0   Do check out Ken R's links

Shifter Shaft Sleeve   http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9629.0

Inner primary bearing  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8919.0      use the S&S Product

Mainshaft Bearing Race  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=11015.0     use the S&S Product
   
Shifter Shaft Sleeve Tool     http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=10319.0

and if you need to replace the SHIFTER SHAFT SLEEVE P/N 34979-00 I'll give you 100 to 1 that your HD Dealer wont have one in stock.

« Last Edit: Wednesday, April 07, 2010. 01:08:06 AM. by Fatboy_SirGarfield »

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #14 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 06:16:04 AM. »
Thanks SGF...lots of good reading. The S&S race looks good!
Here is an update with pics...
1) Inner race...pitted and surface coming off.
2) Bearing with rollers all pitted

more problems to follow...
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #15 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 06:21:18 AM. »
Now...what I have found and I think to be the reasons for my bearing failure.
1) Oil hole blocked by H-D tech. installing snap ring in wrong position. (pic)
2) Warped inner primary?? Remimber my earlier post about binding!! I measure about .024 under my straight edge. Do you pro's know what is ok?? does this sound bad? (pic)
Dan
« Last Edit: Sunday, May 24, 2009. 07:48:29 PM. by DblackmanC »
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #16 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 06:23:29 AM. »
One more for the dealer....How does look for the starter dowel they installed??
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #17 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 07:20:48 AM. »
Few thing,

On earlier primaries there is a step between the motor flat and tranny flat.. Not sure why but if hold the straight flat against the motor side you should see that the tranny side is offset and not warped.

On earlier primaries there isn't an oil feed hole.. Not sure I see one here.

What leads you to believe that the dealer messed up the dowel? Seem more likely to me that the factory might have dome this.. If the dealer were to inspect the bearing, would they have removed the primary?  Maybe HD screwed up the stack up and that was the reason for the inspection??

This layout is not much different from earlier primaries. The ring gear is on a different side of the chain, but.. I wonder why HD had that warranty thing going on on early dynas. Bearing spinning too fast.. They screwed up on the bearing location in the case? The inner bearing was walking like some do?

Max


Aka Mousinator, Another Wasted Minute With Max,
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Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #18 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 10:39:32 AM. »
Hey Max....
1) Warped primary issue...I could hardly turn main trans. shaft by hand until I unbolted the inner primary bolts...then it popped out a little and would spin free. That is what made me put a straight edge to it?? The motor and trans on this model measure flat with straight edge??

2) There is an oil hole on this model. (you can't see it because the snap ring is blocking it) The service books tell all about not blocking this hole or bearing damage can occur. (Duh)

3) Dealer issue...the dealer installed this inner primary bearing about 18,000 ago...therefore all these misques are theirs!! I'm talking with them now about supplying the parts free and I'll do the labor.
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #19 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 03:00:09 PM. »
Got it.

1. They are now flat (good idea )

2. See the hole on P1030999.

3. The dealer fugged up..

Max
Aka Mousinator, Another Wasted Minute With Max,
No Collar to the Bone

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #20 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 04:30:05 PM. »
What is a source and/or part number for crossover Bearings and Seals for '06 Dynas.

Inner Primary Bearing/Race
Inner primary Bearing Seal
Clutch hub Bearing
Shift lever seal on Trans.

Where do you get them????
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline Max Headflow

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #21 on: Saturday, May 23, 2009. 08:51:24 PM. »
Sounds like the dealer told you to pound sand..

Clutch Bearing in Basket           35   72   27   37906-90      generic 5207       
Inner Primary Roller-Brg                   32   52   15   9135            
Inner Primary Roller-Inner race   25   32   25.3   34091-85       Link Belt   MA5205/W762

I believe you can get the roller from Jireh.

Max
Aka Mousinator, Another Wasted Minute With Max,
No Collar to the Bone

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #22 on: Sunday, May 24, 2009. 05:46:04 AM. »
Max....Your warm!
The Service mgn. could not make that decision himself, must get owner approval, and of course he is out of town for the holiday weekend. I took him the untounched parts, he has his tech come out and inspect. Tech agreed whoever did that f***it up. Then they looked it up and found out there other store did it!!!! He was understanding from then on but not handing me any parts yet!!
Told him I would do the labor just supply me the parts. I'll advise...He is to talk with owner Tuesday and give me a call. So, yea I'm preparing for the worst.
Thanks for your and others help,
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.

Offline L-

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #23 on: Sunday, May 24, 2009. 06:12:49 AM. »
Years ago I was doing a lot of time overseas and left my wonderful ole '93 FXR to a very highly rated indedpendant mechanic.  Just had pistons, cam and heads and lifters.  I got back and picked it up and took it for a ride. Lots of valve train noise.  So I took it down.  Bent exhaust valve, broken valve guide and two Jims lifters and two H-D lifters.  So now days I just wait until I can do things myself.

L-

Offline DblackmanC

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Re: Roaring in the Primary???
« Reply #24 on: Sunday, May 24, 2009. 06:19:53 AM. »
L....I'm getting to where If I didn't see it, I don't believe it!

The dealer also told me since they are not doing the work it might be hard to get it approved. I said fine, I'm only 5 miles away, come and get it and you spend the labor BUT I'm going to watch and make sure they do it right this time. I don't think he liked that....
Dan
'06 Dyna, 95" Bagger.